A little civility, please
By Steve Greenberg | September 13th, 2009 | PERMALINK
The political volume has gotten way too loud lately.
The “Town Hall” forums on healthcare, with orchestrated protests arranged by talk show hosts and bloggers, turned into screaming matches instead of rational debates on a subject affecting every American. It wasn’t so much that people disagreed with Obama’s proposals, but the point of the turnouts seemed to be to scream and shout down any intelligent conversation.
This was a tactic employed by the Yippies and other radicals of the 1960s — some of it in the name of free speech — and it was an unsavory, undemocratic technique then, and it is now, coming from the opposite side of the political spectrum.
The incivility of the present time was perhaps best encapsulated last week on the floor of the U.S. House of Representatives, when Rep. Joe Wilson (R-South Carolina) blurted out “You lie!” in the midst of President Obama’s address to the nation on healthcare.
The entire House was shocked. Individual members of Congress may have flagrant improprieties involving campaign finances or sex, but nonetheless they expect Congress —as an institution — to be a place of some degree of tradition and decorum. In any event, you don’t insult the President of the United States there, especially when he’s your invited guest.
Wilson, who apologized once (and refuses to apologize further), may have been a target of condemnation by his colleagues on the floor, but also became a folk-hero to the Forces of Anger — angry about everything Obama says and does, with the flames fanned by conservative pundits in the media and the blogosphere — and found campaign funds immediately gushing in his direction.
We’ve also seen in this atmosphere of anger an embrace of conspiracy theories: Obama is not even an American, say the “Birthers,” who insist he was born in Africa and must be disqualified from office, or the spreading of dark hints of “death panels,” hysterically embraced by such politicians as Sarah Palin (burnishing her credentials for thoughtlessness) who scream “Don’t kill Grandma!”
And perhaps even more hysterical was the frenzy over Obama proposing to speak to the nation’s schoolkids. Never mind that many presidents have done so (Bush read to schoolkids from the book “My Pet Goat” even as the reports of the 9-11 attacks were given to him) with nobody being upset in the least. But this time, parents across the nation furiously — FURIOUSLY! — insisted on keeping their kids home that day for fear of Obama’s “socialist agenda” or “indoctrination” and led by such supposedly responsible people as governors. Of course, the actual speech was an utterly innocuous one, promoting the virtues of such universally praised things as studying hard and staying in school… which is exactly what the kids who were forced to miss the speech by staying home that day did NOT do. Sigh…
Anyhow, I have wanted to do a cartoon on the lack of civility and civil discourse for awhile, and came up with the cartoon posted here. Given the fact that I’m an editorial cartoonist — not known as the most genteel of professions — you can see the noise had to have gotten pretty loud to turn off someone who does this for a living. It’s a bit like if Howard Stern told you you were being vulgar, you’d have to assume that you were being WAY vulgar.
—————-
Be sure to see the huge archive of my work (organized by topic area) on my web site at http://www.greenberg-art.com
|
|
Comments
Comment from CrazyOnYou
Time September 14, 2009 at 9:07 am
I\’m afraid that not all of the anger and rhetoric have been coming from the right. There\’s been a fair amount of name calling on both sides.
Honest scientists who dare question some (or any) of the current popular view on global warming are labeled nutcases. Conservatives, even non-partisans, who question the administration\’s policies and tactics are derided and ridiculed in public media.
As an American, I don\’t want the most efficient form of government. I want one with checks and balances. Let there be debate and discussion between reasonable people in a public forum.
As a parent, I was a lot less concerned by the President addressing children at school (I was waiting to see the text of his speech, reserving judgment). I\’m a lot more concerned about what I see as a cult of personality developing around him. (Tell me that if an organization had sponsored something like the \"I Pledge\" video from Demi Moore and Ashton Kutcher asking schoolkids to pledge allegiance to George Bush there wouldn\’t already have been a Congressional investigation into it.)
As a citizen, I think my representatives should dig in their heels and refuse to vote on any bill they haven\’t had time to review. Rushed government is never good government. (And I\’m absolutely sure that Democrats didn\’t invent that approach.) Grow the hell up guys and gals–the citizens you are supposed to serve expect you to do the right thing, not the politically expedient thing.
Comment from LikeSoy
Time September 14, 2009 at 9:20 am
Amen to CrazyOnYou\’s comment.
Also wanted to note the banner ad on the right, urging me to vote for who\’s to blame for the economic crisis. Look at Nancy Pelosi wagging her finger. That\’s the image of the left, no matter how much it should be eclipsed by the more positive attitude of Obama.
This angry climate didn\’t happen overnight, and 8 years of blaming Dubya (and the right) for everything from Katrina to your hangnail played a LARGE part in stoking the flames of partisanship.
Comment from AbleGoodman
Time September 14, 2009 at 9:25 am
Seems everybody’s upset now that the polite “right” has finally learned how to utilize the decades-old manipulative and uncivil demonizing tactics — e.g. “Give me your money or you’re a racist, bigot, misogynist, homophobe (take your pick)!” — of the “left”. It’s a clever cartoon with excellent art work, but it overlooks the most important reality of politics: things get settled by POLARIZATION and defeat. Slavery was discontinued because the abolitionist “lunatic fringe” like John Brown said, “we are going to start killing slave owners”. Of course, the establishment of that day hanged Brown for his trouble, then lawyer Lincoln stepped in, fought the Civil War, killed some 620,000 young soldiers, inflicted unknown civilian casualties, and exchanged “legal” blacks-as-chattel slavery for the political and economic slavery of the entire population plus the de facto elimination of the 10th Amendment. My point? Notwithstanding clever cartoons, the polarization necessary to “permanently” resolve great political questions is by definition and inherent nature UNcivil. In that context, the current lack of civility doesn’t seem like such a huge deal.
Comment from AbleGoodman
Time September 14, 2009 at 9:55 am
Regarding Joe Wilson’s “You lie!” outburst, context can be had by recognizing the fact that reality itself defines “politics” as: person or group A trying to persuade person or group B to obey the will of A. Of course, the easiest way to accomplish that goal is by using deception. That is why deception is the so-called “art” of politics. That is also why “politicians” are by definition professionally-skilled deceivers (aka “liars”). Most political partisans only recognize the “other guy’s” lies. The simple fact is, virtually all politicians lie all the time. All those deliberately false promises politicians make to their ignorant and gullible constituents who so desperately want to believe there is such a thing as “something for nothing” are simply wannabe-clever efforts at achieving the political triangulations necessary to win enough votes to obtain or retain public office. What gets lost in the MSM shuffle/blather is that at the time of Wilson’s outburst, Obama was in fact lying. Everybody knows it, it’s just that the “left” doesn’t want to admit it because at the present time Obama is “their guy”. They had absolutely no trouble seeing W’s lies when he was in office and was the “other guy”. The whole smarmy situation kind of reminds me of Robert Shaw’s character in the Paul Newman movie “The Sting”, when Doyle Lonnegan said, “What am I supposed to do, accuse him of cheating better than me?!” So with Joe Wilson’s truthful-but-impolite outburst, why is the “left” suddenly complaining that the “right” has learned to “cheat” better than they do? Sorry if I seem a bit cold, but I just can’t manage to get all worked up about it. Circumstances are not desperate enough yet to get the attention of a corrupt Congress which will pass 1,000+ page bills without reading them. Maybe supermarket shelves need to be empty first.
Comment from Aaron
Time September 14, 2009 at 8:53 pm
As that great American philospher of the realist school Forrest Gump said, “stupid is as stupid does”. Maybe some cartoonists have been referencing him, but as I’m not in the US I haven’t seen them. But it amazes me that the Left haven’t been quoting Forrest’s down-home, golly-gosh-gee-whiz aphorisms at the very people from whom he sprang in the “red states”…
Comment from paterson dave
Time September 15, 2009 at 5:48 am
wilson must have been really tough on governor sanford, i betcha.
Comment from FlemishAmerican
Time September 15, 2009 at 5:52 am
Haven’t any of you seen the debates of Parliament in the United Kingdom? Gees, Wilson was barely audible compared to the way the opposition treats the Prime Minister there. I don’t propose the U.S. should do the same thing, but it seem that it was an impulsive, unrehearsed moment that hardly deserves all the press time it is getting.
Comment from Plainsman
Time September 15, 2009 at 6:24 am
Poor old Joe Wilson only did what the rest of the rightwingunts have been doing for months. Believe me I’ve heard much worse about President Obama and none of it true. Glenn Beck called Obama a racist and said that Obama had deep seated hatred for white people. I’ve lost count of the number of birth certificates that the Birthers have produced and when each one has been exposed as forged they go out and find another one with it in turn found phony. That old criminal E. Howard Liddy finds a spot on Fox and readily produces “evidence” that Obama is an illegal alien. It goes on and on.
What’s sad is that lifelong, reasonable Republicans pick up on this trash and spread it around like the latest email joke, which, if it was, would at least be humorous, but these people think it’s the truth. Republicans may cheer the likes of Joe Wilson but the negative effect on the party will mean that the Republican Party will be in the minority until they decide that to sit at the grownups table then you have to act like an adult, have good manners, and chide the children at the other table for being too loud and ill mannered instead of letting them dictate what the important business of the party.
I
Comment from Deb
Time September 15, 2009 at 6:30 am
Good points by Steve. Even better points by Crazy. Let’s discuss our views on health care reform. Where are our leaders in Congress? No one on either side has been able to sway me.
Comment from JimW
Time September 15, 2009 at 6:39 am
Typical lefty column. He forgot to reference all his columns about the uncivility during Bush speechs, the conservative speechs on college campuses, the drumbeat of “Bush lies”, attacks on Palin and her family. Oh, thats right, that’s as civil as the left gets!! He also forgot to mention that Obama was lying through his teeth during the speech and had just accused people who disagreed with him as being - what was the term - I think it was “liars” or maybe just lying. So the president can call people liars in a speech (that’s civil) but decorum says that he shouldn’t be accused of same? Maybe Wilson should have waited until after the speech, but maybe the president should have a bit more class and civility. Oh, and Mr. Obama - stay out of my medical decisions, my wallet, and the rest of my life. The “forces of anger” are typical citizens like me who work, save, own homes, pay their bills, vote (for what little good that does) and believe that the government is too big, too bloated, too corrupt, too inefficient, too intrusive, and would just like to get back to a “constitutionally limited Republic” as written.
Comment from Cruizn
Time September 15, 2009 at 6:47 am
I really do NOT give a crap about politeness and decorum in Congress. If someone is lying, and Obama WAS lying, they should be called on it immediately. That happens all the time in the British Parlament, and they seem to have survived as an institution. Whoever came up with this stupid idea that politemess is more important than bringing out the truth? I do NOT buy it.
Comment from James
Time September 15, 2009 at 7:28 am
Since so many of you　state absolutely that President Obama was lying, about something, I would appreciate it if you would clearly inform us as to just what these lies were. Point by point, details please. We are ready to listen.
Won’t go into the lies of past or recent presidents.
Comment from mole
Time September 15, 2009 at 7:45 am
Many of these posts are stunning. Instead of acknowledging that Joe Wilson went too far, we have these conservatives somehow blaming “the left” for his atrocious behaviour. The posting about this happening all the time in the British (and Canadian) Parliament is simply wrong. A Member of Parliament is NOT allowed to call another member a “liar” in the House of Commons; immediate expulsion from the chamber results. I am not aware that any member ever called the Prime Minister a liar in the House. Of course, once they step outside, almost anything goes.
Come on now, you conservatives. Instead of your knee-jerk reaction to this nonsense as being the fault of the liberals, let’s hear condemnation when it should be heard. Joe Wilson’s comments were inexcusable in Congress and everyone across the political spectrum should be telling him so. The fact that some screaming individuals on the far right see him as a kind of “folk hero” is disgusting.
Comment from Moe
Time September 15, 2009 at 7:48 am
In today\’s media market, truth is irrelevant. By countless repetitions, we create our own reality.
\"A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest..\"
And so it goes…
Comment from Glen
Time September 15, 2009 at 7:52 am
Given the high pay of Congressman and Senators, I do not think that it is too much to ask that they be able to read 1,000 pages. If the folks we elect are unable to do that much, they still are able to hire staff that can read quickly. If that is not “doable” for your representative, shame on you. Elect someone who competent and willing to do the work.
Comment from Jo Ellen
Time September 15, 2009 at 7:56 am
Editorialists and cartoonists should take it upon themselves to be better informed. I don’t mind balanced scolding, tit for tat. But don’t insult us by pretending that the elder Bush left his talk with the school children unscathed by the media. Do not insult us by pretending that the younger Bush wasn’t called “Loser” and “Liar” by political foes, some of whom are still sitting in Congressional seats. Do not act outraged and shocked when your own Socialist party has been guilty of much worse.
Comment from Hardcore One
Time September 15, 2009 at 8:10 am
My how the left hates when its own tactics are used against its own party! May the ‘ti fot tat’ continue!
Comment from Aaron
Time September 15, 2009 at 8:12 am
“To sit at the grown-up table, you have to act like an adult.” The writer meant “like the Democrats” who are not blameless in this current political climate. Many Democrat lawmakers openly booed during a Republican President’s State of the Union Address. The outrage at Wilson is understandable but I don’t remember the same reaction after that speech. While they didn’t call the man a liar in the congressional chamber, they certainly did slander his name at every turn, causing one of the most ugly periods in our nations history following his re-election. While not an effective leader or communicator, that man was at least standing on principles and willing to take risks in the name of protecting Americans from the kind of attacks we saw 8 years ago. Did he go too far? Maybe, but most would have overreacted to that scenario, and probably would have taken things even farther. The fact that there were no more attacks or even close calls in the remaining 7 years of his stay in office is always brushed under the mat. It’s a shame that neither side at this point trusts the man across the aisle. They all need to grow up because we don’t have anyone better to put in office….at least judging by these and other posts.
Comment from Hardcore One
Time September 15, 2009 at 8:17 am
“It’s a shame that neither side at this point trusts the man across the aisle.”
And we never will!
Comment from swift
Time September 15, 2009 at 9:00 am
HARDCORE ONE….i AM calling you out. Here is a paste of your comments to me yesterday, when I correctly quoted Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution that taxes can be raised to provide for….the general welfare:
Here is your response: Comment from Hardcore One
Time September 14, 2009 at 10:38 am
“as I read above, mandates that the government PROVIDE FOR THE GENERAL WELFARE.â€
That is a BLATANT lie. It reads PROMOTE, not PROVIDE, for the general welfare. Swift is one of the BIGGEST liberal liars on this blog. Swift, how much FREE MONEY are you sucking from the government tit?
As anyone who can read knows I am correct, I asked you to apologize for your crude comments. You did not apologize or acknowledge that you are factually wrong. You added new insults instead. Have you no shame?
If you had any decency at all, you would acknowledge your wrongness in fact and your wrongness in behavior. You are treading close to defamatory libel, which applies equally to the internet as to any other forum. You had to back down and apologize profusely for seeming to promote civil war, another crime.
You even begged the government (listening to all our discussions, right?) not to take your seeming threat seriously, as you didn’t mean it ane language like that again.
Then when Tim Stockton called you out, for misquoting him, you apologized. Now you owe me an apology and everyone on this forum for your terrible behavior and your distortion of facts and your lack of knowledge about the Constitution.
Comment from plantrant
Time September 15, 2009 at 9:09 am
Hey, I just checked out the Constitution and guess what? The government is mandated to provide for the general welfare, as well as the common defense. Many on the Right deny this but it’s in the Constitution front and center. If healthcare is not gneral welfare, I do not know what would be. The language of the Constituion puts providing for the general welfare on an equal footing with the common defense. These are indicated as the two legitimate goals of raising taxes.
So HARDCORE–many of us are disgusted with your dafamatory antics. If you are wrong, have the guts to admit it. If you defame someone without cause, have the guts to apologize to all of us you have offended.
Comment from swift
Time September 15, 2009 at 9:17 am
HARDCORE….I just received n email from Rob, who monitors this forum about your defamatory comments about me yesterday when I quoted the Constitution. You are also subject to libel laws.
Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I will remove the comment and contact him about rude and offensive behavior. If it persists, he will be banned.
Regards,
Rob
I will tolerate no more of your offensive and obscene comments. Now do the right thing and admit you were wrong and apologize.
Comment from Hardcore One
Time September 15, 2009 at 9:30 am
Swift, I apologize
Comment from Scottb
Time September 15, 2009 at 9:36 am
Joe Wilson was wrong to disrupt the Obama speech in which he apologized to the President, and it was excepted. Let that be the end to it . But no, Idiots like greenberb can.t make a living by “just letting things drop”. And also if he knows so much about what happened in DC he must have asked one of his liberal bigots, becouse I didn’t see him there. The fact that the liberal media did not cover the rally is a good thing. Who needs them. They don’t report the news anyway. It seems it takes the right to uncover the graft and thugs such as ACORN and people like :”the man Van”. ACORN is on it’s way out and Van is already out. More and more of Obama’s Chicago Thugs will be uncovered. Hold on to your seats.
Comment from Hardcore One
Time September 15, 2009 at 9:40 am
“Obama, health care reform, and ME!”
Look on this blog and you will se the apology.
Comment from dale miller
Time September 15, 2009 at 9:41 am
You people, cartoonists and writers, seem to all be sliding to the left. You seem determined to jump on the far left bandwagon and accuse the repukes for all of the dissent during the “town hall summer”. Did anyone in your universe attend any of the meetings in the heartland? There was no yelling, screaming or disrespect at most of these. The people on both coasts are already sheeple and ill mannered louts. Those in the midwest are their own people and said in a polite and sincere way that Obamacare was scaring the crap out of them. You are being led by the mainstream, liberal, socialist media down a path that is unacceptable to we free thinking freedom lovers. Sure wish you would do your own thing and get back to drawing and writing more centrist material. Booo, Wake up. Dale
Comment from dale
Time September 15, 2009 at 9:43 am
Scottb…………I just have to quote your first sentence, as it is a classic falsehood and contains a spelling error which reverses your intended meaning: A perfect example of fringe logic and unintended comedy:
Joe Wilson was wrong to disrupt the Obama speech in which he apologized to the President, and it was excepted.
Keep us laughing!
Comment from Mike
Time September 15, 2009 at 9:45 am
It is really getting tiresome the “Political Correctness” line that must be followed. You can’t fix “Stupid” and when both Democrats and Republicans are displaying their arrogance and “stupidity”, it may be time to do a good spring cleaning and remind the successors who pays the bills. Maybe we need more Joe Wilson’s who at least speak the Truth without trying to “put the proper spin” on it.
Comment from Hardcore One
Time September 15, 2009 at 9:52 am
Funny, though swift, how everyone thought it was so funny to call me a “gay Canadian” and nobody thought that was slander or libel, nor did I even demand an apology, but I guess I will remember that going forward whenever someone calls conservatives names too.
Comment from Janice
Time September 15, 2009 at 9:59 am
LOLOL! So many of the posters here are readily willing to demand we adopt British Parliament style courtesy if it allows knuckleheads like Wilson to make fools of themselves in public, and OH! did he make a horse’s patootey out of himself, alright. I hope he syphons off a nice little nest egg from those campaign dollars rolling in, because he’s going to need it when his constituents lose their jobs and insurance (that is if they’re lucky enough to have jobs that provide more than high deductible health coverage now.)
But I’m willing to bet a shiney new penny that all of these Etiquette De-Evolutionists would scream like stuck pigs if they had to accept British style Single Payer Healthcare. LOLOL! I’m not shocked by the circuitous and faulty logic of these boneheads, picking one thing that suits them from England and abhoring the rest. They’ve had so much practice over the years in how they read their bibles.
Comment from plantrant
Time September 15, 2009 at 10:15 am
Joe Wilson is described by Republican colleagues as an idiot. Those praising him and promoting uncivil behavior are enemies of democracy, which is based on civil discourse, showing respect for the rights of others and an allegience to truthfulness.
What about the left, as tho two wrongs would make a right? Well, calling Bush a llar or war criminal has a factual basis. Several international courts have tried and convicted Bush on evidence presented. For that reason, Bush (and Cheney and Rumsfeld) cannot travel to many countires because they would be arrested as war criminals. I feel no obligation to be civil to war criminals.
Obama, on the other hand, is loved around the world (remember the Declaration of Independence? It puts forth the concept that before making a critical decision–to separate from Great Britain–it is necessary to justify that action “OUT OF A DECENT RESPECT TO THE OPINIONS OF MANKIND.”
This is called a requirement. Those who say they don’t give a damn what other nations think dishonor the respect incorporated in the Declaration. The Founding Fathers understood well that without the respect of “mankind” their project was in jeopardy and would be impossible to justify.
Because Obama has earned the respect of the rest of the planet, he has already improved our relations with other nations and therewith enhanced our security and influence. Where Bush is afraid to go, Obama goes and is honored. That honor accrues to our nation.
The Right is full of sour grapes. Now their best argument is a defense of crude behavior. Having lost the Presidency, the Congress, and international respect, they repeat lies (birther/deather/tenther/Obama/Hitler/communist/facist) and when called out, lash back with hatred and irrationality. It’s an ugly scene.
Fortunately, the Right lost the election and support of the American majority. Their dreadful behavior is a reflection of their inability to accept this fact. Devoid of the facts, the Republicans resort to vile insults and blatent falsehoods. Some buy it; most don’t. Those who buy the lies are now defending uncivility, as it excuses not only crude behavior but using lies and insults to attack the winners. Rancid grapes!
Comment from Scott
Time September 15, 2009 at 10:16 am
Oh boo hoo. Can always count on a liberal crying when the shoe is on the other foot. Conservatives have now learned this “shout out” behavior from liberals and their organizations such as Act Up and Move On. Those have perfected the shout out method of “discussion” - liberals are simply crying foul as they don’t want their methods used on them. And as conservatives, we find it disturbing as well but understandable. I do not have enough space to list the exact same offenses the liberals have been committing for years. How about just shutting up for a change - then perhaps we can get back to civit discourse, but as long as we have demonetization of the other side, it will not happen.
By the way - while I “feel” for the decorum of congress (ROFLMAO), had Joe or any non liberal made this statement outside of the address, it would have gone largely unnoticied, but when the entire nation is watching it caused the democrats to actually make changes to the bill. So in the issue of civil discourse and governance, it was the right forum, it was the only forum, where real change and discussion could be affected.
Comment from Dave S
Time September 15, 2009 at 10:33 am
What a useless article! You columnist wish us to believe this is the first time anything like this has happened in the “hallowed halls” of those that are supposed to represent us. How convenient to forget the boos and noises during one of George Bush’s last speeches.
I am glad of Joe Wilson’s outburst for it captures the genuine disgust and frustration of those that are tired of the federal government spending more than it can possibly make up for in fair taxation and usurping authority that is not granted by the constitution.
We “right wingers” sat back enduring years of your crazy protests. So stop your baby whining and get used to the idea!
Comment from plantrant
Time September 15, 2009 at 10:41 am
The defense of crude behavior and blatent lies (birther/deather/tenther/Obama/Hitler) is a tactic of those who, having lost the election and support of the American majority, suffer from sour grapes and cannot accept that they have lost. Devoid of rational argument, they favor vile insults, rudeness, and outrageous falsehoods, with defamatory and shameless attacks on those who expose their uncivility and falseness.
This is a desecration of democracy and free institutions, which are rooted in civil discourse.
What about the left? Didn’t some extreme leftists defame Bush, et al? Well, first ,two wrongs do not make a right. And second: Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld have been tried and convicted of war crimes in serveral international courts. That is why they cannot travel to many natilons: they would be arrested.
So standing up to a war criminal is hardly an act of uincivility; better to describe it as an act of humanity.
Obama, on the other hand, is respected and honored by the vast majority of people on this earth. So what, say the people who don’t give a damn what other countries think? Well, our Founding Fathers, in the Declaration of Independence put the highest value on “a Decent respect to the Opinions of Mankind,” which they stated was REQUIRED to justify the separation from Brtitain. The Declaration was written because of this respect. Those on the Right seem to have repudiated this root purpose of our Founding document.
Lack of respect for the opinions of mankind, and the aggressions which flow from this disrespect, created great fear and hatred of the US under Bush. Most people thought Bush was more dangerous than bin Laden. What is the result of this: our security, power, and influence were diminished.
With Obama, our country is once again respected, and with that comes more security and influence.
Those who malign Obama with their insults and absurd comparisons, damage our national security and power. If Obama gets trapped in Afghanistan and the civilian deaths continue, the Left will get on his case (it already is: read the Nation and other progressive mags ).
Joe Wilson? I’m with stupid.
Comment from Tim Stocken
Time September 15, 2009 at 10:56 am
I would like to ask the holier than thou right wing religious fanatics just how often they interrupt their minister during a sermon they disagree with. The rules on decorum in the House during a joint session are even stricter than a church, and should be equally reverent.
Joe Wilson is a retired military lawyer. I wonder how often he yelled out his displeasure during a military trial he was involved in.
This time, however, he did it to his Commander in Chief. Being retired military and expecting his due military pension, I wonder if he didn’t disqualify himself with his outburst. Who should deserve more respect from a military officer, the judges in a military court, or the Commander in Chief?
Just asking…
Comment from dale
Time September 15, 2009 at 10:57 am
Scott, your defense of Wilson is priceless. I like it so much, I quote you:
. How about just shutting up for a change - then perhaps we can get back to civit discourse, but as long as we have demonetization of the other side, it will not happen
Yes, the majority and elected leaders should just shut up. After all, what are elections for? What is free speech for? As soon as the winners shut up, we will have civil discourse. And what is “demonetization?
This sounds like a semi-literate trying to talk smart.
Disclosure: Liberals are not crying or whining. We are delighted to be chosen by the American majority to lead the nation. It is a time of celebration for liberals. This whole issue of whining is a shadow projection of the losers, who, unable to deal with their loss, project their unclaimed feelings onto liberals.
Winners rarely whine; losers who cannot complete their grieving, get stuck on anger and whining (bargaining) but blind to their own condition, they project it onto the winners. It is hilarious.
Comment from swift
Time September 15, 2009 at 11:01 am
Tim Stockton….just a word to show my appreciation for your always brilliant, informed, and civil discourse.
In a sea of wingnut depravity, you are a welcome voice. Thanks.
Comment from Shane
Time September 15, 2009 at 11:12 am
Wouldn’t it have been just awful and a disgrace if someone had, say, thrown a shoe at Obama? What unprecedented events America is going through right now.
Comment from swift
Time September 15, 2009 at 11:20 am
Shane…..Bush invaded Iraq on a lie….a war crime according to the UN Charter. If the Iraqi people could get their hands on Bush, they would tear him apart. . The shoe thrower is considered a hero in Iraq. Bush is seen around the world as a war criminal; he is afraid to go to most nations, because he risks being arrested.
Obama has promoted healthcare reform. That is hardly a war crime. People love and respect Obama around the world–all to our benefit. I
If you are trying to defend Joe Wilson with dry irony, you are defending a retired officer who insulted his Commander in Chief. Reread Stockton on that.
Comment from Mobster
Time September 15, 2009 at 11:39 am
Scott, Dave S, HardCore 1, you are all to be commended for taking on the liberal ACORNUTS who attempt to dominate this channel. Dale, e.g. gets his chuckles by criticizing the spelling of “accepted”. Dale forgets he spelled inauguration as “inaergeration” or something similar the other day. But that’s OK.
Dale’s the one who got a big slapdown the other day by Carl who destroyed his uneducated statements on libel. Dale, self-proclaimed Juris Doctor, got a mini lesson on basic law: torts, crimes, etc. Go Joe Wilson! These uninformed get their news from PMSNBC and ABC. Charlie Gibson this morning wasn’t even aware of the ACORN prostitution tapes!!!! Go Joe Wilson! Obama did lie. The next day the White House admitted there was no language banning illegal immigrants from health care….. Their fuzzy-wuzzy, hopey-changey president can do no wrong……The guy never shuts up…one incoherent fuzzy-wuzzy speech after another. The Arrogant One is obsessed with hauling his Magic Teleprompters around the country, creating massive carbon footprints. Boeing workers in Charleston, SC kicked out the machinist’s union today. The good news just keeps rolling in!!!!!!
Comment from Pete
Time September 15, 2009 at 11:43 am
There exists no civility, Steve. These Republiscum are the Apostles of Hatred. Angry, bitter little people. They have a vast need to overcome childhod feelings of inadeqyuacy, and to somehow erase the stigma of growing up financially poor and without education, dignity, social standing. They imagine they can acquire such things thru “identifying” with the ultra-wealthy. Thus do they foever vote against their own self-interests. Their wee little minds are shaped by the power of bitterness, self-failure, and invective. They reveal what Darwin labeled ” THE INDELIBLE STAMP OF (THEIR) LOWLY ORIGIN.” And so it is. They know only how to erect roadblocks of human stupidity in the way of progress and positivity. Each one, individually, is a supreme coward. Crude, rude, unsophisticated. In their “political” actions, they employ the cheap, but effective, old gangland practice of insuring solidarity thru complicity. Ignorance begets ignorance. They forever disclose an encounter with the Great Unwashed Masses.
Comment from SOLP
Time September 15, 2009 at 11:50 am
Tim, what Joe Wilson did was wrong, just as it would have been wrong to do to any ‘president’. We were winning this battle until he opened his big mouth. Now, I fear, because of his temper, we will all be stuck with this communistic healthcare bill. I read this in a post and I wanted to repost it to see if I would get any answers.
“To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
To establish Post Offices and post Roads;
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;–And
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereofâ€
This is the complete specific list of common defense and general welfare that the federal government can provide, where in there do you see healthcare?”
Comment from Sick of Liberals
Time September 15, 2009 at 12:00 pm
“There exists no civility, Steve. These Republiscum are the Apostles of Hatred. Angry, bitter little people.”
We are just following your lead Pete. This is how the dems acted for 8 years toward us, so this is how we thought it was supposed to go. Unless you are saying your side was also wrong for the past 8 years. “do unto others” this is what you did unto us so we are merely returning the favor.
Comment from Glennis
Time September 15, 2009 at 12:16 pm
Comment from Pete
Time September 15, 2009 at 11:43 am
There exists no civility, Steve. These Republiscum are the Apostles of Hatred. Angry, bitter little people.
******************************************************************************************************************
Gosh, Pete. That’s quite a diatribe! Describing yourself as well?
Comment from Betty
Time September 15, 2009 at 12:22 pm
It astounds me that people can get upset over one man calling the president a “Liar” when in essence that was exactly what he was doing. What we should be getting upset over is the corruption going on in our government, democrats and republicans, and what’s happening right before our eyes with Acorn prmoting prostitution of undergage girls and taught how to cheat on their taxes. They incidentally are receiving money from the stimulus plan that comes from taxpayers. It’s time to wake up and see the big picture before your freedom is taken from you and everything is controlled by the government.
Comment from dale
Time September 15, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Mobster….I except your apology. Go back and read the full commentary on libel. I cited a recent settlement of 11 million dollars for online defamation. The rules are the same, online or anywhere. It is a crime to libel, which means defamation of character. You and your comrades need to read the libel laws before you spout off about slapping me down. In addition, this forum has rules of decency. Hardcore just had his obscene and laughingly wrong comments deleted by the forum moderator.
I want to quote one of your priceless arguments, because it is so funny and reveals the utter inanity of the wingnuts on this forum:
\"Go Joe Wilson! Obama did lie. The next day the White House admitted there was no language banning illegal immigrants from health care….. Their fuzzy-wuzzy, hopey-changey president can do no wrong……The guy never shuts up…\"
I won\’t comment on the level of intellect here, but if Joe Wilson wanted to challenge Obama, his line should have been–\"That is an insincere promise.\" Obama said he would not sign a bill which granted status to illegal immigrants in the healthcare program. That is a promise, not a lie. If he does sign such a bill, that would be a lie. So, he didn\’t lie, he made a promise.
Second, you say the Dems admitted there was no language banning illegal immigrants. Here is a quote from AP\’s Erica Warner:
The illegal immigrant controversy that led to the outburst from South Carolina\’s Wilson stems from Republicans\’ contention that illegal immigrants would be able to get federally funded health coverage under the House health bill — even though the bill expressly prohibits federal subsidies for illegals
Please provide the citation where the White House admitted that this express prohibition, which I have personally read in the bills Congress is considering, does not exist. If they did, they are lying. If not, you are.
Yes, I made a typo in the spelling of inauguration; I typed in an e where there should have been a u.
We all make typos, and my general rule is that good manners trumps good spelling. But if you attack me and call me a comunist, I will call you out on your spelling. If you confuse accept with except, which has about the opposite meaning, in an attack, you deserve to be called out. If you just misspell something in your haste, it doesn\’t matter. Context is everything. It\’s like in basketball: no harm, no foul. So their!!
Comment from wildthing
Time September 15, 2009 at 12:29 pm
It’s the Cheney T-shirt as the WMD method of inspiring a cause… minus the glove mind you and full of tortured logic…
Comment from Jim
Time September 15, 2009 at 12:33 pm
I think Joe Wilson was rude, out of order, and disrespectful of the president. Having said that, I agree with few things that Barack Obama has done. I agree completely with Joe Wilson. But, he is the duly elected president of the U.S. and should be able to speak on the floor of the House. I know if this was 200 years ago, Wilson would have probably challenged him to a duel.
I was angry every time George Bush was called a liar, war criminal, stupid, retarded, and lord knows what else. But I don’t think these lies ( I call them that ) were shouted at him while he was speaking to a joint session of congress.
Comment from Tim Stocken
Time September 15, 2009 at 12:40 pm
Swift - Thank you very much for your kind words. I also enjoy your posts as well as others on this site. Yes, even some on the right provide insight, at least those who attempt to add, rather than detract from the debate. I always read Bill Buckley in this regard. He could rip his adversaries apart, then go have a brandy with them afterward.
Unfortunately, today what we have are people who think shouting over the dialogue proves their point. They are bullies and take me back to my grade school days. Now we have the appropriately named Mobster, who thinks that by insulting the president, he is making his point. To him I say I often disagreed with his probable hero, Ron Reagan, but I did not think he was a traitor. He honestly thought by creating a new wealth level at the top, the money would be reinvested into the economy, thus increasing rather than decreasing tax revenue. He was wrong, as our present situation proves. Supply side may actually work under the right circumstances, but only when there is lack of wealth at the top. Today, the model is top heavy with a moneyed few, and the money is fleeing offshore along with the jobs.
To Solp I say the word communistic is overreaching and combative. There are many programs aimed at the social welfare in this country, the military, interstate roads, medicare, social security, the postal service and many more. No one is suggesting we eliminate police protection because it is a social program. Go to the Declaration of Independence to find a truly socialist document. In it we are to promote the general welfare, which certainly encompasses health care.
Solp and others need to see what the present health care system is doing to our entire economy. There are more than 300 different health care plans out there, and this is causing havoc in every doctor\’s office in the country. Nearly a quarter of all costs in a doctor\’s practice are involved with paperwork for insurance companies. That does not include the 35% of our premiums that go for insurance administration costs and the profits which are getting to the point of being obscene. Costs have doubled over the past seven years and I have seen projections that say health care could cost 40% of the average worker\’s income in this country by the year 2020.
If this is the status quo, a revolution is indeed in order…
Comment from dale
Time September 16, 2009 at 10:07 am
SOLP….you are ignoring history and the debate, over two centuries, about the meaning of the Section 8 provide for the general welfare clause in the Constitition. Ten minutes of Google search will show the context of this debate: Madison was for limited enumerated powers; Hamilton was for an expansive view of the clause.
In 1937 the Supreme Court (which decides the meaning of the Constitution, not you or me) reiterated the expansive view of the clause; so that is the the law and has been so for a long time. Here is a quoted explanation of the interpretation from an online encylopedia:
The Court soon modified its holding in the Butler decision in Helvering v. Davis (1937). There, the Court sustained the old-age benefits provisions of the Social Security Act of 1935 and adopted an expansive view of the power of the federal government to tax and spend for the general welfare. In Helvering, the Court maintained that although Congress’s power to tax and spend under the General Welfare clause was limited to general or national concerns, Congress itself could determine when spending constituted spending for the general welfare. To date, no legislation passed by Congress has ever been struck down because it did not serve the general welfare. Moreover, since congressional power to legislate under the Commerce clause has expanded the areas falling within Congress’s enumerated powers, the General Welfare clause has decreased in importance.
Many things have been created which are not enumerated: here are a few
NASA
Peacecorp
social security
medicare
veteran’s medical
Tarp (by Bush)
the right to privacy
support for faith-based insitutions
and so forth for hundreds of unnumerated powers which the S.C. has rules are legitimate powers under the general welfare clause.
You may not like this, but it is the law, has been for a long time, has roots in Alexander Hamilton’s viewpoint of expansive powers, and is not being seriously challenged. For 6 years, this century, theGOP had the Congress, the Presidency, and a conservative Court. With this loaded power, they did NOTHING to roll back this interpretation. Nor, in thier years of power did they do anything for healthcare except adopt a prescription drug plan which disallows volume purchasing(a subsidy to Big Pharma) and is unfunded; so Medicare, which otherwise would be solid, must pay for it and so is in financial pain. Did the Repups
include the hugh subsidy in order to destroy Medicare? What other explanation is there?
Reagan, Bush I, Bush II, all the presidents–lived with the current expansive interpretation without complaint and used it to expand government and initiate new, unenumerated programs.
So the argument that healthcare is not enumerated is irrelevant. So says US law as interpreted and unchallenged for over 70 years. Absolute fact: healthcare is a valid expression of the general welfare clause. If you disagree, take it to the Supreme Court: it’s their call.
Comment from Ernie
Time September 16, 2009 at 10:21 am
SWIFT! You say Bush invaded on a lie? OK then the majority of the left lied as well when they voted overwhelmingly to back him.
By the way, Obama is lying, read the script of his own speach and then read transcripts from the bill he is pushing thru congress ( down our throats) and you for your self will see the blatant hypocrisy.
Oh I forgot how can we expect level discoarse from someone who has the Koolaid IV driping at such a high rate.
Comment from Kevin Dalman
Time September 16, 2009 at 10:34 am
There is no rational defense for for a so-called ‘professional’ politician to shout like a teenager during a speech in Congress. It is IRRELEVANT whether you believe him right or wrong. The simple fact is that Mr. Wilson’s actions were irresponsible and childish.
No one shouted at George Bush, no matter how strongly they disagreed with him, or believed he was ‘lying’. In Congress he was shown the respect he deserverd as President. Were he not, the bloggers and talking-heads would have demanded the culprit be expelled or similarly punished. But when it is a Republican being stupid, he is a folk hero. Makes me want to puke!
If Mr. Wilson is so impulsive that he cannot control himself in the most hallowed chamber of American democracy, then he does not deserve to be in Congress. If he thinks shouting like a partison hack is productive, then he should go to the town halls where such childish behaviour is apparently acceptable. But he should NOT bring these antics into Congress.
It is bad enough that American cable-news has devolved to the level of The Jerry Springer Show, making American the least informed population in the western world. That any American would applauds seeing Congress similarly devolve into a schoolroom of shouting children astounds me. The Founding Fathers are rolling over in their graves.
Comment from swift
Time September 16, 2009 at 10:47 am
Earnie….if the Bush team lied to Congress, and Congress believed the lie, it would itself not be lying.
It’s sin would be believing the President and his appointed liars, like Rice (mushroom cloud), Cheney (Osama and Hussein in league) and Powell (look at this yellow cake).
Many progressives voted against that war. Progressive do not follow party line; they support Democrats when Dems are aligned with their values and goals. Back in the 1860’s, the Republicans were the most progressive. Things have changed. The Left is not a monolithic block; so arguing from that premise is flawed from its false assumption.
I have read the language on illegal immigrants in the various bills before Congress: they all clearly state that no funding or status will be given to illegal immigrants. If you argue for verification, then everyone of us will need a national i.d. card (do Republicans really want this?) to prove they are us citizens. Do you want national cards to show, even at the Emergency Center?
And while you are asking good questions, your last comment is gratuitous insult; I repeat it because it makes me happy to see an intellectual rival dip into the shitcan for ammunition: here it is………………………………….Oh I forgot how can we expect level discoarse from someone who has the Koolaid IV driping at such a high rate.
As per my policy, since your misspellings are in an attack, I will call you out: 2 spelling errors in a 23 word sentence.??
Disclosure: I misspelled their previously. i before e except after c……………????
I love the word discoarse….it combines discourse with coarse, an apt description of the wingnut concept of public debate. It’s not discourse; it’s discoarse. Beautiful!
Comment from Cruizn
Time September 16, 2009 at 1:11 pm
For those who believe that incivility is anti-democratic, maybe you should read the speeches of Patrick Henry and Nathan Hale. I don\\\’t think that any of you would think of them as anti-democratic, but they were anything but civil to those whom they perceived as the enemies of our fledgling nation and the ideals that it stood for. It is a simple fact that if you alienate people, they will become frustrated and WILL throw civility out the window.
As uncivil as the discussion may seem to you…it has NOT yet erupted into armed insurrection. We can thank the traditions of our country for that. Many nations without the same beliefs and traditions would have already devolved into civil war (now there is an oxymoron for you) by now. However, if the far-left Democrats that now control the White House and Congress continue to ignore the right and center of this country, there are no guarantees that those traditions will hold indefinitely.
Congress had better wake up to the fact that the majority of the country is not happy with what is being shoved down our throats. Congress has already accrued enough debt in the last ten months to put our grandchildren and great-grandchildren in hock for the rest of their lives. It is doubtful that our economy can ever fully recover with this burden hanging over our heads. I believe that many people who bought Obama\\\’s mantra of \\"change\\" thought he meant that the new administration would bring with it a more transparent way of doing business. That was the \\"change\\" they were expecting.
The only people who wish to see a government-controlled health care system are the drones who refuse to work for the benefits they receive, the illegal aliens who have no right to any benefits, and the government power-brokers who would gain even more power in such a system. The American people have no desire to see this President and Congress transform us into a socialist state where the federal government controls everything in our lives. That is NOT the America that we and our forefathers have fought for, and it is the attempt to do so is one thing that will cause the disintegration of our great nation.
If our government wants to reform the way private insurance companies treat American citizens, and if our government wants to actually control the skyrocketing costs of healthcare by dramatically changing the laws that govern malpractice lawsuits, they would have the total support of the American people. We would love to see a system where our doctors only ordered those tests and procedures that were medically (and not legally) indicated. We would love to see regulations that would force insurance companies to operate on behalf of, rather than in opposition to, their clients best interests. Insurance companies should be regulated just as utilities are regulated now…for the good of the public. However, since almost all of the members of Congress and almost all of the key people in this administration are lawyers, you can be fairly certain that they will never touch the things that could actually help our health care system. Instead, they want to just use this opportunity to gain more control over the American people.
Comment from SOLP
Time September 16, 2009 at 1:24 pm
“Peacecorp
social security
Tarp (by Bush)”
3 wasteful uses of taxpayer money!
Comment from Sick of Liberals
Time September 16, 2009 at 1:28 pm
“Absolute fact: healthcare is a valid expression of the general welfare clause”
BULLSHIT! Just remember one thing, if you libs get your free healthcare for all of you lazy dregs losers of society, THAT IS ALL YOU GET! Don’t come crying for other donation programs to continue, because you won’t deserve ONE DIME MORE of help! You want more help, go cry to your ’savior’ Obama!
Comment from Sick of Liberals
Time September 16, 2009 at 1:32 pm
“Do you want national cards to show, even at the Emergency Center? ”
If it means illegal pieces of garbage cannot get access to our system, I am all for it. We already have SSI cards and Driver’s License/State Id cards, so what is the problem with a national healthcare ID card?
Comment from SOLP
Time September 16, 2009 at 1:43 pm
“For 6 years, this century, theGOP had the Congress, the Presidency, and a conservative Court. With this loaded power, they did NOTHING to roll back this interpretation.”:
That is why I am a conservative and NOT a republican. I am seriously favoring the constituion party.
Comment from SOLP
Time September 16, 2009 at 1:46 pm
“support for faith-based insitutions”
Are you sure that is included? that goes against the ’seperation of church and state’. The federal government cannot give money to a faith-based organization as the would be seen as government sponsoring of a religion.
Comment from Sick of liberals
Time September 16, 2009 at 1:53 pm
“your last comment is gratuitous insult;”
Really, then what are these swift (”like Rice (mushroom cloud), Cheney (Osama and Hussein in league) and Powell (look at this yellow cake”) compliments? Talk about calling the kettle black, you make me laugh. So tell me swift, does ‘all liberals are good and all conservatives are bad’ pretty much sum up your views?
Comment from SOLP
Time September 16, 2009 at 1:58 pm
“an apt description of the wingnut concept of public debate.”
from both parties. Anyone who believes that their side is not guilty of it is either ignorant or a party hack that no longer has any credibility in the debate.
Comment from James
Time September 16, 2009 at 8:51 pm
To paraphrase Little Red Hen, ‘So who will say something credible and productive, rather than just engage in diatribes and slander’???
(hint:’Not I, said’…..)
p.s. I don’t believe anyone has adequately, if at all, answered the request for the illumination of our President’s specific lies…
Comment from James
Time September 16, 2009 at 9:01 pm
Sorry, forgot to include the form, feel free to copy and use it for all of our edification (Please be as concise as possible);
Obama Lie 1:
Refute and Proof:
Obama Lie 2:
Etc., Etc…..
Comment from Donna Barstow
Time September 17, 2009 at 5:26 am
Well put, Steve. I was shocked by Wilson\’s obnoxious behavior and disrespect for the office and both parties at the meeting.
This, even though I definitely am against any kind of illegal immigration, and frequently do cartoons about it - and get in trouble from libs. At least I don\’t have to feel ashamed, as Wilson should.
Comment from Baron
Time September 20, 2009 at 5:44 am
This in my opinion is the most ridiculous behavior that i have seen in all the presidencies of my lifetime…
Here you have President Obama, the man plants flowers in his backyard and you get newsflashes and tea parties on “why he only planted on the left side of the garden”…just for example though…
It saddens me to see how truly divided this country is, I know one thing for sure this presidency has opened the eyes of many in our nation, who chose to show their true colors, and I would suggest that we as a people keep our eyes and ears opened to all around us….
To suggest the hatred and animosity of this president, to be because of a “healthcare proposal” is outrageous to say the least, c’mon people save it for someone who doesnt know any better ok!!!
Until the country stands up and faces its hateful past we’re not moving on any further than we have over the past 40 years … you have those that decry he’s killin our nation / hes destroying our economy, um hmm, allow me to recount the past 8 years….WMD= our children,parents, sisters,brothers and otherwise dying in the middle of a dessert, courtesy of GWB / our companies in a mass exodus overseas and allowed to take the $$$ with em’leaving the counrtry in an seemingly unending sinkhole=, once again courtesy of GWB… and now you have President Obama offering a healthcare plan to assist those “without to be with”, and this brings everyone up in arms, and now we’re officially upset??!!! give me a break whydontcha..
OK, look, whats the real deal here guys….like i said face your past own up to it, move on, and lets work together with our president, and stop allowing this insane GOP to try to regain its structure at the country’s expense, having America appear totally weak and insane, according to many foreign news clippings and students here on campus…
Just read through some of the blogs and you can hear the hatred in so many overtones its sad…
get it together folks , at least for the next 4 years….
Comment from Sick of Liberals
Time September 21, 2009 at 5:11 am
“lets work together with our president”
SCREW YOU, BARON!!! I am not giving you and your damn crybaby libs any more money to just give away to all of the worthless dregs of society who keep demanding they want more free stuff from those who ACTUALLYY TRIED HARD AND DID SOMETHING WITH THEIR LIVES!!!! And the next time I hear its a ‘racism’ thing I am going to scream!!! IT IS ABOUT A PROGRAM WE DID NOT EVEN WANT FROM A WHITE PRESIDENT EITHER!!!!!
Comment from Sick of Liberals
Time September 21, 2009 at 5:12 am
But I guess Baron must be another anti-white racist like I have seen so many libs are becoming!
Comment from Olivia
Time September 13, 2009 at 11:18 pm
Right on, Steve! I shared your blog on FB.