Obama, health care reform, and ME!
By Taylor Jones | September 12th, 2009 | PERMALINK
My view on health care reform will outrage many: I support a single-payer system. There, I said it.
BUT, for those of you who’ve just written me off as a “socialist,” please bear with me for a few paragraphs before you…pull the plug. Or call me a LIAR!
At this point in the debate, I don’t care WHAT kind of single-payer system we devise. It could be public…or PRIVATE. We could copy the British national health care system, or we could all pay premiums to a single, private, mega-insurance monopoly.
We need ONE health insurer. No more. No less.
During his speech on health care reform to a joint session of Congress, President Obama cited several tragic cases where our broken insurance system abruptly shortened patients’ lives. But I don’t need to cite similar tragedies to make my point. I need only talk about my own, garden variety experiences in dealing with the “world’s greatest health care system.”
Two years ago, I fell off a ladder while painting my dining room ceiling. More accurately, the ladder toppled over, tossing my scrawny body across the room. No cause to sue the ladder manufacturer — I alone was to blame. It was late at night, and I was rushing to finish applying a coat of primer so I could get to bed. The ladder got to rocking and…kaboom!
It was my first serious injury. My femur broke in three places, including a nasty compound fracture which produced blood and gore. There was also a spiral fracture running nearly half the length of the femur. And I’d broken my left elbow, too. Amazingly, the tub of primer landed face up on the floor, right next to my head Thank God for small favors — primer, once it dries, is permanent!
I’d always wondered what broken bones felt like? Now I knew. It was midnight, and I was hollering loud enough to wake up the neighbor’s dogs. My wife called 911. The EMTs showed up within fifteen minutes. Wedged as I was between the dining room table and the window seat, the EMTs had to figure out how to gather me up without harming my back before they could load me into the ambulance.
The half-mile trip to the hospital took all of four minutes. Treatment at the ER bordered on torture. Dick Cheney would have approved. But violations of the Geneva Conventions were necessary to determine the extent of my injuries. At one point, I lifted my head up from the gurney and asked the doctor peering down at me, “This isn’t going to become an episode of ‘House,’ is it?” He grinned and then proceeded to catheterize me. “TRAUMATIC INSERTION!” he barked to the nurse who was jotting things onto a clipboard pad. That meant the insertion had drawn blood.
I was scheduled for emergency surgery at 6:30 that morning. It took three hours to clean up the wound, repair my femur with a 10-inch titanium rod, and sew me up. The orthopedist had hoped to untangle the gnarl of damaged ligaments around my left knee, but he was unable to do so — thereby limiting the ultimate range of motion of my left leg.
My hospital stay lasted a week, to insure that the open wound caused by the compound fracture would not become infected. The hospital environment was godawful. The parade of nurses and technicians was, for the most part, a tour de force of arrogance and indifference. The food was vomitous. The room was dirty, with an unemptied potty chair in the corner by the bath. One of my three roommates that week was psychotic. At one point, I dropped my plastic urinal, which was filled nearly to the rim. A nurse’s assistant, brand new to the job, rushed to clean up the mess — only to be called away and scolded by an R.N., telling her not to perform an orderly’s job. The puddle of piss sat there, unattended, for more than an hour. Mere existence in that hospital seemed to put me at risk of serious infection!
Despite these indignities, I was reasonably pleased with my orthopedic surgeon, and the physical therapists who worked with me afterwards were great. Today, my fourteen-inch scar is almost invisible, and I walk with my normal gait and speed — though not without pain or diminished flexibility. My knee looks weird, but it could have been much worse. Compared to some of your own hospital experiences, I got off easy!
Yet, during my week in the hospital, and the three full months of recuperation at home, I learned just how poorly our health insurance system functions. There is little or no choice, but there IS rationing of health care. And there is waste and inefficiency galore — much of it to the benefit of insurers, doctors and hospitals alike.
The half-mile ambulance ride to the hospital cost over $700, most of which I had to pay myself. I asked the insurance claims adjuster why the ride was so expensive? She blithely replied that the uninsured, using ambulances as cab service to the ER for minor ailments, are jacking up the costs.
Upon my arrival in the ER that fateful night, the doctors asked me what medicines I was taking? In divulging that information, I was tuning my pharmaceutical routine over to the hospital. The hospital would determine if, when and how much medicine I could take — and THEY would administer it. So, the Albutirol I took only occasionally to treat mild asthma would, I soon learned, be administered to me every day by a respiratory therapist. At grandly inflated hospital prices!
One evening, while receiving my Albutirol treatment, the psychotic roommate went berserk, convinced that flies and mosquitoes were buzzing about the room and eating him alive! Panicked, he began rattling this bed. Then he began rattling mine! The jostling knocked my nebulizer out of whack. The face mask filled up with drug-laced water vapor and my eyes began to burn. The bitter taste in my mouth was sickening. I rang the bell for assistance, repeatedly, but the nurses ignored it. I waited a few moments, then pressed the buzzer four times fast. There was an eruption of laughter from the nurse’s station. Finally, I yanked the mask off my face and let the Albutirol steam pour into the air. The respiratory therapist arrived about ten minutes later, on her regular schedule. She wondered what the hell was going on? By then, the psycho, babbling and drooling, had drifted off to la-la land.
For the privilege of staying at the “Hospital St. Ritz,” my insurer was charged $1,600 a day for room service alone. Thank God there wasn’t a mini-bar! The entire bill for the ER, surgery, hospital room and in-house therapy came to $60,000. My insurer paid for nearly all of it, and for that I’m eternally grateful. But I had to deal with insurance agents, and claims adjusters as though it were a full-time job. I was forever on hold, calling the wrong department, or typing detailed letters. And I had to do a selling job, over and over, to convince these industry bureaucrats that I had, in fact, suffered serious injury.
* * * * *
…On ordinary visits to a doctor, I typically sit in the waiting room for at least an hour, sometimes two, before I’m allowed into the “inner sanctum” of the doctor’s office. Then, I’m ushered into a little room, where I’m left to wait for another twenty minutes before the doctor deigns to see me. The consultation lasts about six minutes.
(Don’t get me wrong. I don’t wish to portray doctors as ogres. One physician of mine, in particular, takes his time with me and takes copious notes. But he’s an exception to the routine).
Virtually every one of you knows this dreadful routine. It remains one of the great mysteries of modern medicine: How can a patient wait two hours for a six-minute appointment? If you’re visiting a group practice, there may be ten medical secretaries crowded behind the front desk, juggling a hundred different insurance companies trying to limit or deny referrals and tests for patients. Hostility lurks just under the surface. Their job seems like a living hell to me.
When your G.P. recommends a specialist, you go to THAT specialist. Few of us have the time or information to make educated choices about doctors. But once you start going to specialists, as so many middle-aged folks do, there’s no escape. You’ve got to keep going back for more tests and consultations — if only to insure that your insurance company will continue partial coverage of the medicines your doctor has prescribed.
There’s got to be a better way to do this. I’m under no illusion that a government-run system, or a private, mega-insurance company, would make health care easy or cheap. The rich may have choices; they always do — whether it’s medical care, college education or asset management. 
But the rest of us, the toiling masses, have only false choices. We have the insurance plan our employer (or, in my case, my WIFE’S employer) provides. We go to the specialists our G.P. selects for us. We go to the nearest hospital if we’re injured. And when our insurer raises a premium or denies a procedure, we get by with less or do without.
Now, efforts to reform health care are in the hands not only of Barack Obama and Kathleen Sebelius, but of members of Congress with names like Max Baucus and Chuck Grassley, Olympia Snowe, Nancy Pelosi — and, yes, Joe Wilson. And just like when we go to the doctor’s office, we sit and wait. And wait some more. We’ve been waiting for decades.
On that grim note, thanks for stopping by. If you’d like to see additional samples of my work, please click here.
Comments
Comment from Barbara
Time September 14, 2009 at 6:12 am
Well said, Taylor. I am sorry for your experience and glad to hear that you are up and about in spite of that accident. But you make clear some of the reasons to be for the health care overhaul. I couldn’t agree with you more.
Comment from James Denyer
Time September 14, 2009 at 6:22 am
I am a Canadian and for the last eighteen years I have used our system extensively. Believe me when I say this, our medical system is the best in the world. There has been a lot of misinformation about Canada and the health care system, most of it from the vested interests that run your system. Travelling throughout the USA and I have been in more states than most Americans, it is obvious to me, through conversations with the working class, that their main concern in health care. I talked to a lady [hairdresser] in Phoenix last March and she told me that to insure her four boys it would cost in excess of ten thousand dollars per year. She earns in the neighbourhood of thirty thousand. And the ten thousand does not cover everything.
I have, like you, used our system and if you are proactive it works very well. I have had two major heart operations and the first one was booked within two weeks of my angiogram. The hospitals that I visited were clean, the nurses attentive, the room had a view and the doctors were excellent. All this without it costing me one red cent.
I used your system many years ago [1994]. I had a problem with my heart racing and went to a clinic. I sat in the waiting room for fifteen minutes and then was given an EKG. The doctor talked to me for two minutes and I was given a pill. I waited in the waiting room for another two hours and was then told I was ok to go. My bill for that was one thousand three hundred and eighty five dollars [$1,385.00] which I paid for myself. The doctors charge, get this, was eight hundred dollars [$800.00], for two minutes work!!!
On the subject of two tier, IT WILL NOT WORK, trust me. I have a friend in England [where I was born] and they are on a two tier system. He had a heart attack and was told he needed a heart operation. He went to a specialist and was told that he would have to wait up to fifteen months if he used the national health care. If he paid for it himself then the same surgeon could do the operation next week. So much for the working class getting a fair system. All the people with money in Canada already have a two tier system. If they don’t like waiting or using the national health system they can always go to your country and pay exhorbitant prices and have the work done.
Eighty million or so people in your country are without a proper health care program and that is totally wrong. Your health care system is costing you nearly twice as much per capita as ours, go figure? Your President has a tough road to hoe and I wish him all the luck in the world, but as he is up against a powerful group headed by the big Pharma companies and the top medical people, I will not hold my breath.
J. E. Denyer.
Oakville, Ontario.
Comment from K. Trask
Time September 14, 2009 at 6:30 am
Your essay emphasizes what was not great about your experience, but offers nothing in why a government run system would improve anything. It wouldn’t . There is tons of evidence to the contrary. You do not cite any positive examples of other systems that have it better than us. No one can base a decision, or even be moved to change there position based on what you have offered here.
We all know improvements are needed, but Socialism works until you run out of other people’s money…..
Comment from S Dailey
Time September 14, 2009 at 6:53 am
Thank you for your courage to continue to speak out for single payer. Our president made a disastrous mistake when he excluded single payer plans from the national discussion. I believe the American people want and need the following elements in health care reform:
• All Americans need to have affordable access to comprehensive health care (universal coverage).
• Health care needs to be un-plugged from employment. People would not be so afraid of losing their jobs, bankruptcies would be reduced by half, and employers and employees would be relieved of an exploding expense they can’t control, and the term “pre-existing conditions” would become irrelevant. (I don’t believe this can be accomplished without a public option).
How can this be funded? Several options are available. Here are just a few:
• Remove the insurance companies and their role as “middle-man” between doctor and patient from the US health system, along with their administrative complexity, excessive executive pay, and staff payroll for thousands of people who could instead be providing direct care (single-payer).
• Spread the cost among all working Americans and employers in an equitable fashion (fees).
• Create a new tax bracket. Any taxpayer with taxable income of over $500,000 would pay an enhanced Healthy America tax on only the taxable income above $500,000 at a rate such as 50% (taxes).
• End the US occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan, turn our bases over to their governments, and bring our troops home as quickly as responsibly possible. US support for reconstruction in both countries could continue with minimal military presence, resulting in improved international relations and enormous financial relief to the US budget (reduced expenses).
• Limit the salaries for doctors and administrators, which could be capped at no more than the highest amount paid for comparable skills, training, and experience elsewhere in the world (cost containment with the best of globalization ).
• Control the cost of pharmaceutical drugs developed by US companies (regulation).
Comment from Neil
Time September 14, 2009 at 7:09 am
While I am sorry to hear about Mr. Jones poor experience, he only complains about the poor quality of care he received, which is completely irrelevant to how it is paid for, and therefore has no bearing on his support for a single-payer system.
Mr. Denyer, I am glad you have had good experiences with your system. However, I can just as easily cite dozens of others using your system who have had experiences that make Mr. Jones look like a weekend spa. No individual experience (yours or theirs) can demonstrate how a system works.
Comment from Rachel Nabors
Time September 14, 2009 at 7:16 am
Your post confirms a sinking suspicion I\\\’ve had: most cartoonists get their insurance through a spouse\\\’s employer. That\\\’s comic book artists, illustrators, caricaturists, anyone who does art for the masses for a living.
I used to make comics for a living for an NBC-owned web site. Then it turned out I needed a whopping $25k worth of jaw surgery to fix my TMJ. I had to give up the life of a freelance cartoonist/illustrator which just paid the bills but was the most rewarding thing I\\\’ve ever done only so I could get health insurance because I couldn\\\’t afford to buy it on my own. There are many single artists like myself who face this problem every year, falling through the cracks because they don\\\’t meet the requirements for medicaid.
Now I\\\’m a nine-to-fiver and the insurance company is balking at paying for my surgery. Great trade up, huh?
I say bring on universal health care. England and Canada can do it! Why can\\\’t we? What\\\’s the hold up? America\\\’s supposed to be the greatest country in the world, right, so how come we take such shitty care of our own? Are we going to let the other first world nations pants us on this one critical issue?
Comment from JT Klopcic
Time September 14, 2009 at 7:30 am
You have some interesting ideas, but the devil is always in the details:
I believe the American people want and need the following elements in health care reform:
• All Americans need to have affordable access to comprehensive health care (universal coverage).
Agree
• Health care needs to be un-plugged from employment. People would not be so afraid of losing their jobs, bankruptcies would be reduced by half, and employers and employees would be relieved of an exploding expense they can’t control, and the term “pre-existing conditions” would become irrelevant. (I don’t believe this can be accomplished without a public option).
Health care needs to be “unplugged” from employment, but I don’t see that a “public option” is the only or even the best way to do this.
How can this be funded? Several options are available. Here are just a few:
• Remove the insurance companies and their role as “middle-man” between doctor and patient from the US health system, along with their administrative complexity, excessive executive pay, and staff payroll for thousands of people who could instead be providing direct care (single-payer).
Creating a single monopolistic bureacracy is NEVER a good idea. History is littered with bloated programs that end up serving their own interests.
• Spread the cost among all working Americans and employers in an equitable fashion (fees).
Agree — but what is equitable? Everyone needs to have skin in the game, or they won’t take responsibility for their own health decisions.
• Create a new tax bracket. Any taxpayer with taxable income of over $500,000 would pay an enhanced Healthy America tax on only the taxable income above $500,000 at a rate such as 50% (taxes).
People this rich have a host of tax dodges available. Trying to soak them will only lead to shortfalls as they figure out how to shelter their income. And, is this what we consider equitable?
• End the US occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan, turn our bases over to their governments, and bring our troops home as quickly as responsibly possible. US support for reconstruction in both countries could continue with minimal military presence, resulting in improved international relations and enormous financial relief to the US budget (reduced expenses).
First of all, this is a one-time savings of borrowed money, versus a healthcare system that continues to increase in cost. Secondly, the geopolitical solution is much more complex than “load everyone up on the next flight home”. Read the news.
• Limit the salaries for doctors and administrators, which could be capped at no more than the highest amount paid for comparable skills, training, and experience elsewhere in the world (cost containment with the best of globalization ).
Terrible idea. First of all, this would lead to staff shortages worse than what we have now. Why should someone go to school for up to twelve years at tremendous financial cost if they have no payback for their effort? Also, do you want the government regulating your salary? This is a dangerous can of worms, here…
Control the cost of pharmaceutical drugs developed by US companies (regulation).
Instead of more regulations, how about fewer regulations, allowing better access to the same medications sold much cheaper in Mexico and Canada? Also, how about paying for a FDA that works?
Comment from TGC
Time September 14, 2009 at 7:31 am
“There has been a lot of misinformation about Canada and the health care system, most of it from the vested interests that run your system.”
From said “vested interests” or your own citizens who flock to border states so they can actually get treated? From said “vested interests” or your own media? From “vested interests” or your own national health care services?
Comment from Scottb
Time September 14, 2009 at 7:40 am
I think I have read that hard luck story before. Different name, different time different place But the same ole sob story. over and over again.
Here is another take;
I was diagnosed with Cancer in my vocal cords. (never cost me a dime except gas) I had 33 Radiation treatments. One every day for 33 days. ( Never cost me a dime except gas.) I\’m having follow-up examinations Once a month for a year. ( It won\’t cost me a dime). I have Blue Cross Blue Shield Ins. The cost of the diagnoses and treatments would pay my premiums for 40 years. I choose MY Ins Co\’s. I choose my doctors. I choose my hospital. You think I\’m going to give that up for some bureaucrat telling when and if I can get treatments or standing beside some illegal immigrant while I\’m standing in line to get them.
The hospitals cost are the reason rates are high, also, change the interstate laws on Ins., so competition will work better. They want to help the uninsured, Help them, leave me alone. Also creating a few jobs might help. To bad we all can\’t work for the Gov.
Comment from Beth Cravens
Time September 14, 2009 at 7:44 am
Well, that’s why I’m careful. With a $1500 deductible and a newspaper salary, I’d be pretty screwed if I got hurt or sick. I don’t even want to think about what would happen if I was self employed.
Comment from Bull
Time September 14, 2009 at 7:45 am
K. Trask, sorry you fixated on the \"government\" part of the essay. You skimmed too quickly to retain the statement that \"I don’t care WHAT kind of single-payer system we devise. It could be public…or PRIVATE.\"
Also, in your haste to post a negative response to \"Socialism,\" you also whizzed right by the following statement: \"There’s got to be a better way to do this. I’m under no illusion that a government-run system, or a private, mega-insurance company, would make health care easy or cheap. The rich may have choices; they always do — whether it’s medical care, college education or asset management. But the rest of us, the toiling masses, have only FALSE CHOICES. We have the insurance plan our employer (or, in my case, my WIFE’S employer) provides. We go to the specialists our G.P. selects for us. We go to the nearest hospital if we’re injured. And when our insurer raises a premium or denies a procedure, we get by with less or do without.\" In my opinion, this is quite sufficient reason to \"be moved to change.\"
I don\’t understand your criticism of the author\’s alleged evidentiary gap but somehow retain your right to assert \"tons of evidence\" of the good workings of our status quo without citing a single one. Are you so important in this world that we should simply take your unsubstantiated word for it?
Or we could just make our decision based upon your clever slogan: \"Socialism works until you run out of other people\’s money.\" Using your own logic, the free market, capitalist, private enterprise system works until you run out of your own money. And your spouse and your children and your grandma are the ones who pay the price for your misplaced pride by doing without affordable, adequate, and continuous health care. I\’m willing to let mankind decide which of these two alternatives is more likely.
Comment from Beth Cravens
Time September 14, 2009 at 7:50 am
Actually, I think most insurance plans include a network of doctors that you have to choose from. Not like it matters, because even with my Blue Cross Ins. I can’t afford to go.
Comment from Hardcore One
Time September 14, 2009 at 7:52 am
“Limit the salaries for doctors”
What gives you the ‘right’ to cap someone’s salary? How about if I demand then to cap all the salaries of you and your lib friends? how would you fell about that?
Comment from Hardcore One
Time September 14, 2009 at 7:59 am
bull and miss Nabors, boo hoo hoo, poor me baby crap!
Comment from Glen
Time September 14, 2009 at 8:11 am
Healthcare is an unneeded and undesireable luxury. The answer lies in religion. Since this life is merely an inferior precursor to eternal joy (for good people) or eternal pain (for bad people), wasting time, money and attention on our health is merely a distraction (from prayer) which ensures that an ever growing number of Americans will go to hell. Forever. Medical personnel should close all medical facilities and go home to pray, thereby doing their best to save their eternal souls. We should celebrate the current high mortality rate of infants in the United States as those who shed their bodies while infants ensure their ascent to heaven. Mothers who die in childbirth, taking their little ones with them, are particularly fortunate to have lived in the United States. In countries like Canada, Holland, and Sweden, they and their little ones might still be alive, still be sinning, and still be preparing for a likely hereafter in a (socialist) hell!
Comment from Ernie
Time September 14, 2009 at 8:33 am
James Denyer , if your health care is so great, how come so many canadiens come to the US for services?
James Denyer , doesnt it piss you off when so many people from a different country come to yours to buy cheap prescription drugs, when it is the canadien citizen who is paying 30% income tax and 10% sales tax to pay for this healthcare?
As for the author of this drivel, you HAVE health insurance, the reason why you pay for some things is because if it were free it would get abused, like cheap or low cost homes.
Secondly the cost also reflects huge insurance costs that the provider must have to defer stupid lawsuits for frivilous reasons
Comment from SOLP
Time September 14, 2009 at 8:42 am
“Create a new tax bracket. Any taxpayer with taxable income of over $500,000 would pay an enhanced Healthy America tax on only the taxable income above $500,000 at a rate such as 50% (taxes).”
I read in another post about how America was not suposed to be a ‘class-warfare’ society. The entire tax system is a ‘class-warfare’ based system. People in a ‘poverty’ level pay no taxes, then people are broken down into income brackets(low, middle, upper incomes and wealthy). they each pay percentages based on the net annual income. If you truly want a ‘class-warfare free’ system, you either need a flat tax or a federal sales tax. But then I here some of you scream ‘that’s not fair to the poor’. So you need to make up your mind, do you want a ‘class-warfare free’ system or not? With the current system, you have the poor hating wealthy individuals and wanting their money, you have the wealthy looking down and despisng the poor for the demanding of them to keep paying for ’social’ programs, and the rest in the middle despising the other two. And you keep complaining that jobs are going overseas, well what do you expect when you keep demonizing corporations and constantly increasing their taxes? If I was an average corporation, I do not think I would stay either if I was constantly being berated. I would up a move to a country that would APPRECIATE me being there and GREATFUL for the jobs. You keep blaming greed for their moving to other countries, but I do not believe that is the whole of it. You condemn them, you chastize them, you berate and belittle them, then you have the audacity to get mad when they ‘take their ball and go home’. You need to make up your minds. Do you want jobs in the US or do you just want to hate corporations?
Comment from dale
Time September 14, 2009 at 8:56 am
“Socialism works until we run out of other people’s money.’
says one astute critic of universal healthcare, available in all developed nations except the USA.
Recent history shows us this: “Captialism works until we run out of other people’s money(leverage). Then the Government steps in and bails out the bankrupt banks and industries.”
Conclusion: ) 1.socialized medicine is working in all developed (and many poor) nations and not one has elilminated it. In Canada for instance, they have a great system and lower taxes. :Likewise in all developed nations: the cost is half of what we spend for better results and everyone is in.
2) When capitalism fails (inevitible in boom/bust cycle), the government (taxpayers) will bail it out. Bush initiated socialism to save capitalism….Obama inherited and is trying to save the (capitalist) economy with public funds (incl loans to be repayed…so the govt acts as a default bank). 3) Ideological fanantics of the free market myth will excoriate Socialism as a failed system, while failed capitalist corporations absorb government funds to recover.
This is a way to have your cake and eat it too. Socialism for the corporations; taxpayer money bails out firms which have earned obscene profits in the boom cycle, when the bust cycle arrives–so Capitalism survives. At the same time, Socialism is condemned as a betrayal of our freedom and free markets.
And then this logical self-contradiction serves as an argument against healthcare reform, because Socialism doesn’t work.
The fact is that without socialism as a method to save capitalism, , we would be in economic ruin. All modern nations know this. But yet we pretend that socialism is evil. And ignorant, propagandized citizens, many in this forum, join the chorus of condemnation. End result: the defense of a system of healthcare (and economics) which, without the government as backup, is a disaster, a national shame, and leading to bankruptcy for the entire nation.
RE: Boo hoo (HI, HC1) boo hoo…………..sob stories about hospital,insurance fiascos…..get a spine people. Be responsible; take care of your own medical needs; be a hospital. Suck it up and suffer.
This is a great article by Jones….a typical example of “the best health care system in the world (if you are rich with lots of tax writeoffs)” . Critics can fall over themselves to find fault with his argument, but the bottom line is: why should the government only help the rich? Why shouldn’t the government represent the rest of us–the toiling masses, the elderly, children, the sick? Those who criticize the government as an evil (the problem–except for the military, the police, the schools, the fire department, the national parks, the highway system, the aviation system, medicare, social security, etc–just those few exceptions to its evilness–create an evil government when they seek and seize power. They get their cake, and eat it, and tell the rest of us to quit whining.
Comment from SOLP
Time September 14, 2009 at 9:10 am
“why should the government only help the rich? Why shouldn’t the government represent the rest of us–the toiling masses, the elderly, children, the sick?”
The answer: They shouldn’t help either of them. The STATES should be deciding how to take care of this and that includes SSI, medicare/medicaid, and welfare too.
The military, the infrastructure(highway, rail, aviation etc.) and naitional parks ARE responsibilities of the FEDERAL government. Police, Fire Dept, schools, SSI, Welfare, and Healthcare are responsibilities of the INDIVIDUAL states. Technically speaking, SSI, Medicare/Medicaid, and federal mandates on schools and welfare are unconstitutional. SSI is nothing more than a large ponzi scheme. If Madoff is in jail for it, then it should be wrong for the Federal government to be RUNNING one. They are going broke because they do not have enough people working to put money back into the coffers to pay out to the retiring baby-boomers.
dale, when are you going to start having people take responsibility for themselves instead of crying to the government like spoiled brats? If it is wrong to bail out corporations, then it is ALSO wrong to bail out citizens. We are supposed to be DIFFERENT from the rest of the world, NOT wanting to become lazy, spineless people like the French!
Comment from plantrant
Time September 14, 2009 at 9:17 am
Lies are still (?) being repeated as though repetition made them true. Canadians are flocking to our wonderful healthcare facilities? Yes, certain rich Canadians come to the US for immediate treatment. And likewise, many poor and retired Americans go to Mexico for cheaper healthcare than they can afford here. And many Americans go to Canada (or Mexico) for cheaper drugs. So?
So let’s get factual: what per cent of Canadians come to US for treatment? Without facts, we are just speculating….just fantasizing.
Also: Ernie reports Canadians pay 30% tax plus 10% sales tax. That is the top rate: in the US, the top rate is 35%, and most states have sales tax of 6-10%. So, Earnie, you are factually wrong. We are getting screwed both ways–higher taxes and inferior healthcare system (based on outcomes). How can you defend such a situation?
If something is free (based on public funds), it gets abused. Is this true? Please provide some factual support for this unequivical assertion. Are highways abused? Are libraries abused? Is police protection abused? Is fire protection abused?
I could agree to this: what is commonly free–the atmosphere, the ocean–is abused. The solution: rules and regulations. Like you cannot empty oil into the ocean; you cannot pollute the air. The abusers seem to be the same corporations that rail against government regulation (Exxon?). Capitalism is destroying the earth…..it’s a fact. And they will continue until it is totally degraded (as it is in many places) or restrained by governmental action. Government can be a tool of the people, as the Constitution mandates that the government “provide for the general welfare.” If clean air and healthcare are not the general welfare, nothing is. PROVIDE FOR THE GENERAL WELFARE. If you don’t like that, you don’t like our Constitution and the goals our Founding Fathers wrote into it.
Comment from Barb
Time September 14, 2009 at 9:28 am
Nobody (including our President and Cngress) has really asked \"what went wrong wit h our HealthCare system and why did it go so horribly wrong\". As a HealthCare Information systems specialist for 30+ years (the last 7 years as a consultant to institutions across this great country) I have worked with every department in hospitals. Add to that my own experiences with the system (hospitals, doctors, nurses, support personnel, accounting departments) both for myself and my parents and grandparents and I can tell you what is good and what is bad…with many \"war\" stories. There are many of us out there who work (or have worked) in the trenches who would gladly tell our stories but no one is listening. You cannot fix a problem if you do not know what the problem is above the fact of the uninsured..adding more people (though this part of the problem is important) to a broken system is not going to fix the system. Do I have a solution..not yet..but I think the President and all of Congress need to focus more on my original question and less on making political points.
Comment from swift
Time September 14, 2009 at 9:34 am
SOLP is wrong on his economics, as usual. If you research it, you find that TODAY and for the past decasdes, Social Security has taken in hugh surpluses, like 170 Billion a year, year after year. WhY? Because the Baby Boomers are the largest, wealthiest, most educated demographic…and that results in these hugh surpluses. HUGH SURPLUSES. Unfortunately, those surpluses have been wasted on wars and a monstrously bloated military.
Likewise with Medicare; it was producing surpluses until Bush pushed through his unfunded prescription drug program, which is funded by Medicare and has eliminated the surpluses. If Medicare were allowed to purchase drugs in volume (prohibited by law–a subsidy to the Big Pharma), it would still be on solid grounds…
The Lie is that these programs are bankrupting themselves, government doesn’t work, etc. The fact is that these are enormously successful, efficient, and beneficial programs which, if their surpluses were actually held in trust, would be on solid ground. SOLp’s contention that they are unconsitutional flies in the face of the the arbiters of what is consitutional–the Supreme Court (with a conservative majority in charge). the Constitution, as I read above, mandates that the government PROVIDE FOR THE GENERAL WELFARE.
Social securlity, Medicare, and Univeral Healthcare are all obvious examples of programs for the general welfare. So, SOLP, how are they technically unconsitutional?
And, SOLP, you call the French lazy, spineless people. Why should we imitate them, with their top rated healthcare system? Well, my friend, the Americans are a fat and stupid people….why pretend we have the answers? After all, we spend twice as much on health as the French and get worse results (we are rated 37th, between Costa Rica and Slovenia by the WHO) and we are the unhealthiest, most obese population of ALL the developed nations. It makes common sense to use the systems which have proved, in real life, to be the best.
Comment from bernie
Time September 14, 2009 at 9:38 am
i guess thats why canadian’s come to u.s. to get healthy care right ? there whait up to a year foe a mri. that’s if you live that long
Comment from Scottb
Time September 14, 2009 at 9:40 am
Quote; They get their cake, and eat it, and tell the rest of us to quit whining.
Some people would WHINE if hung with a new rope.
If you are whining now, wait until the plans, as are written now, go into effect, and we will hear your whining even louder. When you are forced to pay for your Ins. that you can’t afford now, and pay a fine if you don’t. When Employers find it cheaper to put their employees on a gov. plan than to pay premiums, guess what. Ins. cost and also medical cost can be brought down by Gov. oversight. NOT by shoving forced Gov. ran Health care down our throats. I hear talk about medicare, Social Security, and other Gov. ran organizations, well they are all going bankrupt. They are being run on borrowed money now. How long will that last. The President even admits that UPS is ran better and more efficient than the Gov. ran Postal service. Sense when has the Gov. ever ran anything better than the private sector. A little oversight may be needed on the gov. part, and a few laws changed, but a take over? I don’t think so.
Comment from swift
Time September 14, 2009 at 9:41 am
Barb…I appreciate your question: why has our system failed.? Perhaps there is an inherent contradiction in basing medical treatment on the profit motive. This produces an incentive to deny coverage, cherrypick clients, and pad expenses. It almost guarantees failure for the clients, hugh profits for the industry. If the goal of healthcare were health, it would work. Unless the priority is healthcare for all, we will not arrive at that goal. Healthcare for profit is designed to fail in this goal in pursuit of profit. What do you think? We need your knowledge.
Comment from Ken
Time September 14, 2009 at 9:44 am
The answer is not a single payer, but a standardized claim system that is open to competition across state lines while making insurance portable rather than tied to one’s employment. As a cancer survivor, I am well aware of some of the shenanigans pulled by one insurer, losing claims that were to be billed automatically, denying legitimate claims as “out of network” when they weren’t, and employing some of the most incompetent, unintelligent people to answer phones to handle problems with claims.
Once my wife’s employer added several companies and HMOs to compete with this rotten company, I said farewell to them for good. But I don’t know how many others are trapped with a single provider being offered.
I can’t imagine a sole provider, whether it be government or a private insurer, being a good thing. After all, how many people have to hire lawyers to obtain Social Security monies that they deserve? It’s not like government bureaucracy ever seeks a speedy resolution to their mistakes. The other problem with government is the lowball reimbursements offered to physicians, pharmacies and health care services, the cost of which is passed on to other patients.
The threat of losing policyholders to other insurers should help keep them honest in claims handling to a certain degree.
Additional points: Either everyone or no one should be able to pay for insurance (at least some basic plan) with pre-tax dollars. Also, insurance should be mandatory, as it helps reduce risk while assuring that coverage is in place for the unexpected. I was diagnosed with cancer at 25, fortunately, I wisely purchased group health insurance. Even if some of the payments were slow in coming, paying the rack rate would have bankrupted me just two years into full time work.
Comment from swift
Time September 14, 2009 at 10:00 am
bernie…get some facts. Canadians live longer than Americans and have better health. As for Canadians coming to the US for healthcare, what per cent? Where are your facts?. Without facts, you are just spreading a lie you heard and repeat without basis.
My research turned up this statistic: (per Jasonpye.com) “Bob Barr points out that 12,500 Canadians seek health care in the United States each year:” This info is from a conservative website.
That means, each year, one of 2000 Canadians come to the US for medical treatment. So here is my counterquestion: why do 1,999 of 2000 Canadians choose the Canadian system?
According to a study from the 90’s, 60,000 Americans a year go to Canada for their healthcare, and tens of thousands go to Mexico for cheaper rates. And Americans by the hundreds of thousands go to Mexico and Canada for drugs.
Please do not repeat the lie that “Canadians are flocking to the US for medical treatment” Can’t you see that this lie is promulgated by the Industry to prevent change (by maligning the better Canadian system) and protect profits. Health or profits? Which makes the most sense, based on the facts?
.”
Comment from sandman
Time September 14, 2009 at 10:24 am
i am with the evil empire and i get good service and it comes with some limits and some things not covered that i know going in….my son-inlaw mokes no money per say so is on AID one of the little govt. programs…he just got a whole new heart and other litney of service…THER ARRE PROGRAMS FOR THE POOR WITH EXISTING CONDITIONS JUST EXPAND THE DAMN THING
Comment from Scott
Time September 14, 2009 at 10:30 am
Interesting article. I dare suggest that a single payer will only make it worse. We’ve all heard for years about insurance companies limiting the treatments and times spent in hospitals, etc., however you are delivering the exact opposite - that the hospital is in charge and responsible for the excess of charges.
There is not a “single” problem with our health care system, there is problems rife throughout every facet of the system. The first is the inability for insurance companies to compete against state lines so we have created mini-monopolies and squashed the ability to really achieve economies of scale. However, you believe we need 1 single monopoly?! Gee, that’s never worked before, why would it work with something as serious as our health care.
I do understand your bedpan and orderly story - that whole scenario will only get worse as this is yet one more attempt to completely unionize everything. Now unions have had a great and grand and glorious place in history while waiting on laws to catch up on workplace conditions, however, their numbers are dwindling and for good reason. This is just one more payback to big labor and the unions. Just wait until all your health care workers are union and you will pine for the days when you could get this “bad” health care.
It is unfortunate that poor people use ambulances to get to the ER for routine health care, however, you did not say how that would change?
We still have the best health care in the world where world leaders seek their health care when they’re facing serious health problems. There are problems in each aspect of health care, starting with true tort reform. We simply need smart people to tweak (sometimes minor sometimes major) the current system.
Comment from SOLP
Time September 14, 2009 at 10:34 am
“it gets abused. Is this true? Please provide some factual support for this unequivical assertion”
Welfare, medicare/medicaid, and SSI all get abused via loopholes in the system. You have WAY too much faith in people!
Comment from Hardcore One
Time September 14, 2009 at 10:38 am
“as I read above, mandates that the government PROVIDE FOR THE GENERAL WELFARE.”
That is a BLATANT lie. It reads PROMOTE, not PROVIDE, for the general welfare. Swift is one of the BIGGEST liberal liars on this blog. Swift, how much FREE MONEY are you sucking from the government tit?
Comment from BobFromLI
Time September 14, 2009 at 10:52 am
The idea of a single payer is absolutely spot on. What the President did not talk about were his own mother\’s fight with insurors when she was diagnosed with and then died of cancer. The indignity of that ordeal is the reason we need a single payer which is responsible. Private insurors\’ profit and their excessive costs for \’death panels\’ - they call them medical review boards, advertising, executive salaries, lobbying and other expenses rules out private payers as a solution. Those costs alone gobble up 25% of the premium dollar. That money, properly deployed, pays for alot of the plan we need. See, now isn\’t that easy???
Now…the REAL problem: the Medicare Trust Fund and Social Security Trust Fund were both borrowed out beginning with the Nixon Administration and every one since as a device to pay for the Viet Nam war and everything else since. The problem is not about deficits caused by anything we do now per se, it is the fact that these funds no longer reside where they should to pay for the promised services. That means that it is essential that Congress find the money to make good on the IOUs. That will require either a huge increase in real borrowing or another fiscal stunt, if not real tax increases. Most folks simply are not aware of that and those that are are trying to figure out what to do.
Now, Medicare Plus, Medicaid, SCHIP, Federal Hospital Reimbursement and other programs are all laudable but are bandaids. What they all do is take already scarce funds and create multiple paths and duplicative costs to deliver what we really need…healthcare for all which is paid for by all.
Now: where to get the money? Some of the items listed by the President are fine, and I have no objection. What we do know is that our health is not as good as many in similarly situated countries because of our diet. (No, I am not any kind of fanatic!) Large quantities of sugar and meat destabilize our bodies and are causing health issues linked to obesity, diabetes, heart disease and others too numerous to list, not to say environmental stress…even the most dedicated carnivore will admit to that. Why not a quarter cent a pound tax on beef and other red meats? Why not a tenth of a cent an ounce tax on sugary soft drinks? We won\’t miss it…but we\’ll be able to get to a doctor any time we need to. Especially to deal with the disease that this diet is promulgating. This construct would be similar to that which most states use to subsidize education…with lotteries and gambling. It is painless, socially acceptable and invisible.
Comment from Hardcore One
Time September 14, 2009 at 11:01 am
“healthcare for all which is paid for by all.”
How in the HELL do you think you are going to get everyone to pay for it. Simple: you WON’T! FREE HEALTHCARE IS NOT A ‘RIGHT’! FREE HEALTHCARE IS NOT A ‘RIGHT’! FREE HEALTHCARE IS NOT A ‘RIGHT’! FREE HEALTHCARE IS NOT A ‘RIGHT’! FREE HEALTHCARE IS NOT A ‘RIGHT’!
Comment from Shane
Time September 14, 2009 at 11:03 am
Yes! Finally someone gets it. A MONOPOLY ALWAYS creates lower prices with better services. Competition is over-rated.
Comment from BKL
Time September 14, 2009 at 11:09 am
My biggest problem with this column is all the poor spelling and/or typos. (proceded, tecnhicians, beserk, mosquitos, difted, greatful, reommends) Really, where\’s the editor?
Comment from BobFromLI
Time September 14, 2009 at 11:21 am
Hey Hardcore One…Healthcare IS a right. It is never free, but we should all have equal access to it as we do to roads, clean water and police services. Stop yelling and start listening. Most people who are yelling have healthcare, including Medicare or believe they are bulletproof. What happens if the healthcare you have refuses to treat you? What happens if your employer no longer will pay for it? What happens if you suddenly find yourself ill? DON’T GO TO THE EMERGENCY ROOM AND THINK YOU’RE ENTITLED TO CARE. I pay for your emergency room with a portion of my taxes and my healthcare premium. In this state a hospital stay tax is another add-on for your alleged benefit.
Here’s the way it goes: Near me are two hulks of buildings. One north of here, the other one east of here.
Each was a hospital, or so say the signs on them. One was a voluntary hospital which means that they operate as a non-profit entity in community service, albeit with some public funds. Well, my state cut the funds. The average treatment was for a member of a low-income community that did not pay for the treatment rendered and that hospital closed. The other one closed because the physicians who owned it couldn’t afford it anymore, what with increasing legal and accreditation mandates and lack of the economy of scale. Now, we are 15 minutes by ambulance to the nearest hospital, increasing the risk of death or disability due to the time it takes to get expert care. Insurance for all would have kept both hospitals alive…and many patients seeking their care as well.
Comment from Hardcore One
Time September 14, 2009 at 11:29 am
“What happens if the healthcare you have refuses to treat you?”
There was a time where I could not afford to put my family on health insurance. Who paid for it? I DID!!! I worked with the hospitals and doctors and clinics and I PAID for it myself. I DID NOT going running to ‘daddy’ government like a little F’n BABY!
“The average treatment was for a member of a low-income community that did not pay for the treatment rendered and that hospital closed.”
Good, as it SHOULD have!
“The other one closed because the physicians who owned it couldn’t afford it anymore”
And why was that? because all of the low-income rats ran to the neighboring hospital where the physicians were FORCED to treat the NON-payers and the government reimbursements weren’t for crap!
“Healthcare IS a right”:
You SHOW me were in the constitution that it is an F’n RIGHT! And don’t give me your ‘its the moral thing to do’ crap either! If we did not have the ‘right’ to defend marriage with a ‘moral’ ammendment, then YOU cannot legislate your ‘morallity’ EITHER!!!
Comment from SOLP
Time September 14, 2009 at 11:32 am
Hey BobfromLI, Why not have a sliding scale where EVERYONE pays something based on their income? That would seem to be a more fair AND responsible way to work it out. This slippery slope was caused by FDR when he started the whole welfare junk. This is what happens when your just start GIVING people things they did not really earn. They are NEVER appriciateive and ALWAYS want more, and more, and more.
Comment from Jim
Time September 14, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Glen, finally a posting from you that makes sense. But I digress. I didn’t see where Taylor had any problem with the payment of his medical bills, but only with the quality of care he received. Single payer, I don’t know. I don’t see how that would have been any benefit to him.
We do need health insurance changes. I don’t like to call it reform. And I certainly don’t have many answers, but I would like to see:
* Everyone required to have insurance. Those who can’t affort it could be helped by the
government, either through tax credits or direct subsidy. This should be subject to
intense scrutiny.
* Insurance not be tied to employment. You shouldn’t have to change or do without
coverage just because you change or lose you job.
* Coverage by insurance companies. They could be non-profit cooperatives like the
electric company where I live. Still, I’m not sure that I pay any less than a customer of
stockholder owned electric company.
* Coverage like government employees have. This is what I have and I have never,
repeat never, in 46 years had any difficulty receiving coverage. Nor has any member
of my family. It’s not free, I have to pay my share. But it’s not government health care,
it just so happens that the government was my employer.
These are just a few ideas. Let’s not change an entire system which in my experience works fairly well.
Comment from Janice
Time September 14, 2009 at 1:24 pm
I really don’t know why I keep reading these comments at the ends of articles. Taylor Jones wrote a very clear and compelling argument for single-payer and the one or two Canadians who chimed in also wrote exceptionally well about the advantages of their system. Then comes of the parade of semi-literate anti-health care malarky. I’m assuming these lunatics get up early in the morning and google “health-care” so they can start furiously pasting drivel into what should be a serious discussion of our responsibilities as humans to one another.
The reason I need to stop reading the comments at the end of the article is this. After you sift through the vaguely racists posts, what’s left are the delusional, mystical and downright schizophrenic posts … which in and of itself is proof that we need better healthcare and we need it now — and the fact that there are so many who are so willfully blind to that fact makes me angry. I’m tired of being angry.
I say we put it to individual choice. Single Payer is norm but you can opt out if you want. If you want to be in on the government healthcare system, you pay your taxes and you get your treatment. If you don’t, fine…go ahead and and say no but don’t come crying to us when your job cans you or your private insurance company denies you care. Your privately insured system will quickly put and end to you and the rest of us can go on to more productive activities without your incessent, drooling idiocy.
Comment from Hardcore One
Time September 14, 2009 at 1:32 pm
“what’s left are the delusional, mystical and downright schizophrenic posts”
That describes your posts to a tee, ‘Janice’
Comment from Hardcore One
Time September 14, 2009 at 1:33 pm
“without your incessent, drooling idiocy.”
Once again, this describes you to a tee ‘Janice’
Comment from Hardcore One
Time September 14, 2009 at 1:35 pm
“serious discussion of our responsibilities as humans to one another. ”
This line is a bunch of MALARKY. I am NO MORE responsible for YOU janice than YOU are responsible for ME, PERIOD!!!!
Comment from Hardcore One
Time September 14, 2009 at 1:40 pm
And Janice, if you like the Canadian system so much, no one is stopping you from MOVING THERE!!!
Comment from Hardcore One
Time September 14, 2009 at 1:43 pm
“you pay your taxes and you get your treatment. If you don’t, fine”
So does that mean we would get to opt out of paying the taxes that support the single-payer system as well? I don’t want to have to be paying for your healthcare ‘Janice’.
Comment from jim
Time September 14, 2009 at 1:43 pm
There are two Socialism’s. There is SOCIALISM, which most Americans, for very good reason, want no part of.
And there is socialism, which we have been engaged in since 1776. The only way to avoid “small” socialism is to have no government at all, to live in caves, and to be war-lords.
BIG SOCIALISM is the SYSTEM no one wants. BIG GOVERNMENT taking all the money, telling everyone how to live, what to do, when, and parceling out the money as IT sees fit.
Small socialism is what you get when you get together and form a government and make laws and rules and build roads, police stations, fire departments, water and sewer systems, courts, all that jazz.
It is possible to have a single payer system of health care. I hear that the Canadian and French systems are really excellent - the patients, doctors, everyone likes them, and I hear hey are cheap.
Obama wanted to model a new single payer public system on the system that is used by federal employees, including members of Congress.
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/.....-congress/
http://www.opm.gov/INSURE/HEALTH/
http://www.federaldaily.com/pay/fehbp.htm
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What.....gress_have
I ask, why not either open that plan to all taxpayers, or form a coop (non-profit) that will offer a similar plan?
Down and dirty, quick and easy.
I have heard that when Taiwan became a modern nation, it went around the world looking at health plans, and I forget which it chose, either the Canadian or French system. Why? Because it was the best one they could find, that offered the best service at the lowest rates, and the simplest book-keeping.
Something to think about.
Comment from Cruller
Time September 14, 2009 at 2:03 pm
For all of the experts on this site who rave about the Canadian health system, many of whom have probably never visited Canada may it be suggested they visit the country and enjoy the Tim Horton donut shops. When there, approach the real folks dunking their donuts and question them re their health care. I did, and most responses were quite negative……..
Comment from DH Fabian
Time September 14, 2009 at 2:35 pm
As wildly radical as it sounds, maybe it is time for OUR government representatives to actually start putting the American people ahead of corporate interests. Beyond that, I find it disturbing that so many conservatives don’t think the US is good enough, or competent enough, to adopt the same health care programs and standards that have been in place in the more advanced nations. Are we good enough to finally start moving into the 21st century or not? If not, let’s drop the entire health care issue, carry on as we have for the past 30 years, and simply let the US completely collapse (and we are very close to that point today), Maybe it doesn’t matter. Maybe, like all empires, the US is simply reaching the end of its life cycle…and clearly, conservatives have eagerly been pushing us to that point.
Comment from JimG
Time September 14, 2009 at 3:01 pm
I had to laugh at HC1’s repeated posts in response to Janice, esp since she never once mentioned him by name and he took the bait. Not only that, his responses are just like those of a twelve year old! “No, I’m not delusional, mystical, and schizophrenic, YOU ARE! Everything you said goes back to you! Sez you!” Nyah nyah nyah is written all over his posts. I am beginning to believe he is really only twelve and is fooling us all into a debate with him so he can tell his friends at the schoolyard what a bunch of gullible fools we are.
Comment from Carol Hillman
Time September 14, 2009 at 3:37 pm
Yes - we DO need a single-payer insurance program. It does have to be government run, however, in order to keep down the cost of the insurance. I am very disappointed in President Obama, He claims that we must get health care reform “right” during his term in office, yet he is more than willing to sacrifice the one part of that reform that gets it right - a public option! I doubt we could convince Republicans and some Democrats that a single-payer program would be the correct choice for reform but surely we could convince enough Democrats that a public option in the current reform plan is necessary. Without that public option, we will have no reform!
Comment from WENDY
Time September 14, 2009 at 3:44 pm
Like it or not….we can not live without each other. Someone had to install the wires that allows me to type these lines. Someone had to put the roads in place so I could get to the hospital or supply my home with the basic necsessities of life. Someone had to deliver the foods to my stores so we could eat. Someone had to build my car so that could make myself safe if needed or just have some fun. Someone had to go to school to help me educate my children. Someone had to raise my wonderful husband who doesnt use foul language in front of ladies or children. Someone had to tell a joke or draw a cartoon so I could smile a little at my troubles and realize that we are all in the same boat to some extant…..whether I like it or not. So while I would rather not pay medical bills for the lazy folks of the world I have had to accept the fact that I already am paying for all those people by the outrageous prices I pay for insurance and medical bills that are not covered ( $20. for a single asprin to my grandmother 15 years ago….not even a brand name but generic….I still cant get over that). I have the good fortune to be able to aford this. I also accept that so long as some people can not pay my prices will keep going up and up and up.
I have to say that I am impressed for the most part with the response to these medical issues that have been running all month…..and both sides…yaa and naa…clearly have some points to consider. As for the blow hards….name calling and swearing…..they just lose more takers than they get.
Comment from Carol Hillman
Time September 14, 2009 at 3:48 pm
Thanks, Glen, for the best comment I’ve read in a very long time. Thanks to you, I’m going to become a born-again Christian since I don’t think there are born-again Jews! Then I won’t have to worry about my pre-existing clause in my health insurance plan or any aspect of my health care!!! Hey - if I get so sick that I die, I’ll go to my “eternal reward” that much sooner!! Maybe I’ll really luck out and go to Judgment City (see the movie “Defending Your Life”) where I can eat whatever I want and never gain weight! Hallelujah!
Comment from Thomas
Time September 14, 2009 at 5:55 pm
Taylor, I’m sorry your experience with our healthcare system sucked. But I have no idea what any of your problems had to do with a single payor system. Scott’s comments from above were spot on. Instead of trying socialism, why don’t we try to fix the payment mechanism in our system first.
Or lets try what former Intel CEO Andy Grove suggested two years ago. Start with small fixes that will make dramatic improvements and then work up from there.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/05/2...../index.htm
Has anyone ever been to the DMV? Handing over a complex system such as healthcare to the government is not going to fix anything. And it certainly won’t make the waiting lines any shorter.
Comment from Glen
Time September 14, 2009 at 6:09 pm
You are on the money, Carol. However, the Devil is in the details. The best place to go, of course, is Limbo, the outermost circle of Hell. As described by Dante, the rivers run with either red or white wine. One wines, dines, and diverts for eternity. Make sure that your family includes at least 1 white and 1 red wine glass in your coffin (you never know which river you might find most convenient). My reservation is in, of course. I plan to play a lot of bridge. All good non-Christians are eligible. Unfortunately, no provision was made to accommodate Christians. I do know a few that would fit in nicely, however. Perhaps we could sneak them in the back door.
The concept of Limbo–a region on the edge of hell (limbus means \"hem\" or \"border\") for those who are not saved even though they did not sin–exists in Christian theology by Dante\’s time, but the poet\’s version of this region is more generous than most. Dante\’s Limbo–technically the first circle of hell–includes virtuous non-Christian adults in addition to unbaptized infants. We thus find here many of the great heroes, thinkers, and creative minds of ancient Greece and Rome as well as such medieval non-Christians as Saladin, Sultan of Egypt in the late twelfth century, and the great Islamic philosophers Avicenna (Ibn Sina) and Averroës (Ibn Rushd).
Comment from swift
Time September 14, 2009 at 7:02 pm
HARDCORE…IF you are wrong about what the constitution says about providing for the general welfare, will you admit you were wrong and apologize for the rude way you faulted me when I was totally correct?
Here it is, my friend: open your Constitution, and go to Article I, Section 8, number 1: I will quote it:
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States
PROVIDE….FOR THE GENERAL WELFARE–there it is, Hardcore. Here is the comment you made about me when I correctly quoted Section 8:
That is a BLATANT lie. It reads PROMOTE, not PROVIDE, for the general welfare. Swift is one of the BIGGEST liberal liars on this blog. Swift, how much FREE MONEY are you sucking from the government tit?
If you have any decency at all, you will apologize and realize you have never truely understood the Constitition. The reference to promoting the general welfare appears in the Preamble. Please note, my Hardcore but confused friend, that Ihat I have corrected you without any rudeness. I did not call you a liar,as you did me (tho I am correct). I don’t think you are a liar, just very ignorant and irrational and uncivil.
Comment from plantrant
Time September 14, 2009 at 7:17 pm
Thomas…..you use the DMV, as many do, as an example of how horrible government service is. In California, at least, you can call and make an appointment and you won’t have to wait in line at all. It usually takes less than 5 minutes to take care of business. What’s the problem? Akll this with very low overhead.
If you have ever had a dispute with an insurance company, on the other hand, you know what a frustrating nightmare that can be.
Many malign public servants unjustly. The people at the Post Office, Police Department, etc. are usually helpful, friendly, and competent. I can’t say the same for dealing with Microsoft or Ebay or any number of monopolistic corporations, who are able to ignore or deny customer needs. Politicians can always be voted out if they do not satisfy the citizens; CEO’s are unaccountable and so are able to do outrageous things and give themselves outrageous salaries without any public recourse.
We should honor our public servants and appreciate that our economy depends on government programs and services to function. I am fed up with prejudiced people trashing the millions who work for the government on many levels, including the military, the highway and aviation and park services, teachers, police, firemen, etc. etc. etc. Let’s improve government, not destroy it.
How you can Love your country but hate your President, elected politicians, the government and the historic majority who elected Obama?
Comment from stevens…
Time September 14, 2009 at 7:34 pm
Contact … ACORN.. They will lead the way to free healthcare…
Comment from Carole
Time September 14, 2009 at 7:59 pm
You think you wait now, that is nothing compared to what would happen with a single payer system.
Comment from fencerider rob
Time September 14, 2009 at 8:49 pm
I only desire to be afforded the ability to opt out of the government and all it’s immoral programs, from our very corrupt and immoral foriegn policy to our ponzi retirement scheme and all the other illigitimate uses of the tax monies. I do not wish for anyone to be required to participate in my system unless it is voluntary. Anytime force/violence is used (confiscation of our money through taxation is forceful with the threat of violence) good cannot come of it. Thus the entire government as it currently exists is immoral and to support it is immoral also, no matter the high ground it constantly claims to be on.
Comment from Howard
Time September 14, 2009 at 8:57 pm
KTrask and Scottb,
it seems like you are both happy with what you reciived in the way of care but just wait till you are denied care and your rates go up 20 to 25% per year, then you will understand. Scott do you pay the premiums because if you don\’t and your employer pays most then you won\’t understand.
My premiums just went from $396 to $498 and have done so most years. I haven\’t had to many health claims but I just inquired about a shot for shingles prevention which was $245 and they won\’t pay a dime. Funny my kids had all their immunizations and they paid most. When you are in your late 50\’s they don\’t want you cause you repersent someone who is going to cost them more and more money and they don\’t want you.
Hopefully you two won\’t have to find out the hard way.
The other thing I keep hearing is that this is Socialism, but I ask myself is health care and capitalism able to take out the inconsistincies about profit and my health . Why do we have fire departments that are run by cities, shouldn\’t that be a capitalist enterprise. We can all pay a monthly fee and probably a bigger fee if a person has a need for a fire emergency. What about the police or Water Districts or sewage for the cities. When a company wants to charge me high premiums and limit my services, thus putting my health and life in danger and then it goes after the hospitals, drug companies, doctors and others involved in providing services to me, then what makes you all think the goverment can\’t , wouldn\’t and shouldn\’t be involved in providing health care.
Why is it that the only Republicans who sing with the choir are the ones who have personally experienced this assault on ourselves. The Republicans seem to be against change at all, less goverment they say but if this was 1776, they would be the ones to say keep with the status Quo, don\’t change and stay with the King.
Comment from Dano1125
Time September 14, 2009 at 9:38 pm
Mr. Jones: What a sniveling, narcissistically introspective tale you tell, as if your experience trumps all others; as if the efficient treatment and healing efforts of the hospital you were able to get into quickly was a horrendous experience of intentional diversion-of-attention from your self-proclaimed position at center stage. Yours is a fairly uncomplicated challenge for our present system to address, yet you rage at slow nurses and loony suitemates, as if that’s all you can remember, except, oh wait! you were treated promptly, professionally and to a degree where you now suffer no noticeable limp and have rejoined all of feckless society as a still-insured ‘artiste’ (thanks to your wife’s employee insurance). What a self-centered, egregious, insensitive lout you must be, telling one ‘ho-hum’ story as if it were Nazi experimental nail-pulling or Hanoi Hilton hospitality (where their ‘piss pots ‘ were also their drinking vessels), when literally thousands of people, (all much sicker than you EVER were with your clumsy, self-inflicted femur fracture), line up at our borders to get the prompt, professional, timely medical attention they are denied in their own countries; countries where ’sorry, you’ll have to wait for that treatment ‘ becomes a heart-rending ‘death watch’ for patients and their loved ones. No, I won’t resort to calling you simply a ’socialist.’ I will place you at the front of a long line of other liberal lunatics who think THEY are the victims of a horrid multi- fanged ‘capitalist’ system that somehow should remove the profit-motive from our healthcare system, reducing one of Big Pharma’s incentives for life-saving, profit-driven research, taking (read: stealing) from higher income-than-cartoonists…money-grubbing free enterprise entrepreneurial successes (who, by the way, employ 90% of American workers, possibly your spousally-cursed wife among them).
No, not a simple, stupid socialist.
Just a simple, stupid-liberal, selfish, ego-centric whiner.
Comment from Glen
Time September 14, 2009 at 9:47 pm
One of the nice things about Obama is that he is educated, even taught constitutional law. You may recall about 6 months ago when liberal folks were calling for the annulment of legal employment contracts, he demurred. He has demonstrated respect for both the letter and the spirit of our laws. He is not a knee-jerk ideologue, thank goodness!
Comment from bernie
Time September 14, 2009 at 10:03 pm
swift… just so happens i live in canada and have had several of my friends die waiting for care because they could not afford to travel to u.s., another friend could not get the drugs she needed because it was not in canada’s formula because they did not have a “gerat demand for it “so u.s. was the only alternative for her …so be a little swift and get your facts before you are so quick to draw conclusions.and make statements about another persons comments
Comment from granny6
Time September 14, 2009 at 11:19 pm
Dano — so good to hear your sweet voice again!! You are so kind to others!!
We have been talking about alot of things — and it boils down to money. EVERYBODY wants more of it — the pharms, the hospitals, the doctors, the employers, the employees and the ins. companies. But what would happen if all of these people paid the same tax??? Federal responsibilities would be supported by a 10% tax on all gross income —- welfare income, earned wages, corporate income — no exceptions, no shelters, no excuses, no write-offs, no cheating. I have this nagging feeling that some families pay more tax (actual dollar amount) than some of our most wealthy citizens and businesses who always seem to have a legal loophole to jump thru. Do we have a list of those “loyal” entities who paid NO TAXES in 2008??? Just wondering,
Comment from david7533
Time September 15, 2009 at 4:03 am
It occurs to me that it has been a very long time since I have listened to \"A Child\’s Garden of Grass\"… It would certainly be healthy for a number of the posters here to have a good cosmic laugh.
Taxes cannot bankrupt one; unexpected and impossible expenses can.
Ooonyelliman… und zen onto ze next galaxy und ze next!
Comment from Hardcore One
Time September 15, 2009 at 5:22 am
fine swift. From now on, If I see anyone needing help, I will ask them if they are a conservative or a liberal. If they are a conservative, I will help them. If they are a (bleeping) liberal, I will laugh at them, spit at them, and tell them to go beg to Obama for help, FOR YOU LIBS will ONLY get your help from the governmnet!!!!!!!!! BABIES!!!!!
Comment from Hardcore One
Time September 15, 2009 at 5:23 am
“Like it or not….we can not live without each other”
The hell I can’t Wendy, I don’t need you or any other stinkin’ lib!
Comment from Hardcore One
Time September 15, 2009 at 5:25 am
“The people at the Post Office, Police Department, etc. are usually helpful, friendly”
The Post office and DMV friendly??? You have to be kidding!
Comment from Hardcore One
Time September 15, 2009 at 5:27 am
“How you can Love your country but hate your President, elected politicians, the government ”
You libs did it for 8 years with Bush! You really hate it now that the shoe is on the other foot. Does it piss you off that we hate ‘Obama’ because of his policies? GOOD!!!!!!
Comment from plantrant
Time September 15, 2009 at 8:06 am
bernie….you say you had several friends die in Canada because they had to wait for treatment and could not afford to travel to the US. Haha. That is a good story but totally unbelievable. Why didn’t you loan you friends a hundred bucks to travel to the US? From the absurdity of this claim, I suspect you are just making this up, that you are not even Canadian. It doesn’t pass the smell test. Oh, Bernie, you ignore the facts I present and counter with a falsehood. Why do 1,999 out of 2000 Canadians, in a year, choose Canadian health care, whereas 1 of 2000 comes to the US? Come on, deal with reality.
Comment from Hardcore One
Time September 15, 2009 at 8:15 am
Bernie, don’t even bother with ‘plant for brains’. I do not believe he is even Canadian, just some liberal blogger trying to steal his free piece of the pie. I guess liberal = lazy.
Comment from swift
Time September 15, 2009 at 8:16 am
HARDCORE…I asked you to apologize for your defamatory libel because I correctly stated that the Consitution states in Article I, Section 8, that the the government can raise taxes to provide for the general welfare. You ignored this legitimate request and added more insults. I am calling you out. You have no integrity, no decency at all. You are a shameful human being with no conscience or truthfulness. Even when you are proved to be dead wrong, you refuse to fess up. You feel your raw hatred justifies any libel, any falsehood, any indecency. At the same time, you are a coward, hiding behind your anonymity and hatred. I think Daryl will be interested in your comments.
Comment from Hardcore One
Time September 15, 2009 at 8:19 am
Swift,
I will apologize, but I disagree with what it says. But just remember, if you are a liberal don’t bother asking me for help. Go get it from ‘Obama”
Comment from Hardcore One
Time September 15, 2009 at 8:39 am
“To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
To establish Post Offices and post Roads;
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;–And
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof”
This is the complete specific list of common defense and general welfare that the federal government can provide, where in there do you see healthcare?
Comment from Hardcore One
Time September 15, 2009 at 8:52 am
I apologize for irrationally calling swift a liar.
Comment from BobFromLI
Time September 15, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Hardcore One, I just got back to some of your posts. I can understand why you think that everyone should be self-sufficient in providing for themselves and their families. Clearly, you have never lived under the crushing level of debt some desperate people place themselves under in an attempt to get good healthcare, only to go bankrupt in the process. Insurance is socialism. If the insurance is provided privately, it is with a capitalistic base. If it is governmentally established, like Medicare, it has the identical mission and structure with a slightly different initial capitalization…that’s all.
Since one of the missions of our Government, under our Constitution, is “to promote the general welfare”, it entirely clear that a continuing mandate to this government by the Founders of this country to do what it can to assist the populace is clearly in order. It is merely a matter of how and when those among us who cannot get care for one reason or another should be provided for by the Government. The least effective way for our society to provide for all of its members is the way we do it now…and the way you apparently would like. That burden is far too high on me…as a paying insured…and your neighbor who has a ‘pre-existing condition’.
What you continue to advocate is a profit-making enterprise which may or may not benefit you in a particular circumstance coupled with a second tier of health consumers who have virtually no assistance and no advocacy. That is not the way we do things in America!
Then, there is the matter of ‘in network’ and ‘out of network’…you pay a different rate if your insurance plan has negotiated with your provider. You don’t know how you’ll get stabbed here…the Lewin Group, a health insurance creature, will determine what they’ll pay and what you’ll pay. Is that fair??? Is it reasonable? I don’t know about you but I’d rather have my government tell a bunch of over-priced doctors what they ought to charge…when they’re intent on ripping me off.
Oh, and read the Constitution as a real and living document….not as a literal document. If it were read the way you want, you would not have a specific right to privacy, your airwaves would be crowded with radio and TV stations talking over each other and you would have very few rights if arrested…even if in error. Oh, and slavery would still potentially be legal as would segregation.
Comment from Sick of Liberals
Time September 15, 2009 at 12:47 pm
“I don’t know about you but I’d rather have my government tell a bunch of over-priced doctors what they ought to charge…when they’re intent on ripping me off. ”
I would rather pay a doctor what he is willing to accept as adequate payment and get great treatment and care versus a government telling the doctor that ‘this is all he is going to get’ and receive mediocre care at best. How would you like it BobFromLI if the federal government stepped in and told you you could only be paid so much and no more? Would you wok yourself to the bone knowing you can never make anything more? I wouldn’t. If someone told me I would never be able to get a raise, I would just do the bare minimum and go home. I work hard to EARN more and ADVANCE! I DO NOT work for YOU or ANY OTHER supposed ‘MORAL’ cause. We are not ‘The Borg’! We are INDIVIDUALS who work for OURSELVES and to better our OWN lives, NOT ANYONE ELSE’s. If you have the right to demand free ‘Moral’ healthcare, then I have every right to deny homosexual(IMMORAL) marriage.
Comment from Sick of Liberals
Time September 17, 2009 at 5:05 am
“What you continue to advocate is a profit-making enterprise”
Verses your ’socialist’ (very bad only helps the lazy crap) program!
Comment from James Denyer
Time September 14, 2009 at 5:59 am
Testing